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Old 07-04-2013, 05:21 PM   #61
CaseyJones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
About the only thing darksiders do not have yet are the the numbers in writing from unbiased methodical testing reports. (scientific method) And if and when they do that, I am pretty sure they will confirm what darksiders have already known for quite a while now.
Where's the "scientific method" tests that show, going over Niagara Falls in a barrel, will kill you?

I've linked to writers who discussed the reasons why a cycle magazine would not literally DO what you endorse. Specifically, "Reckless Endangerment." They have liability issues to consider. That's why they don't disconnect the front brakes on some cycles to prove, as some chopper advocates used to claim, that the front brake was unnecessary.

And that's why they don't put a car tire, or a truck tire, or a tractor tire, on their cycles for a test.

They're smarter than you, IOW.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:30 PM   #62
CaseyJones
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You want testimonials? Here's one.

http://lazyboy249.wordpress.com/2009...orcycle-setup/

Have you ever heard of the darkside setup for motorcycles? The picture on the left here sort of explains it all, except for the why and Iíll handle that. Basically itís an automobile tire on the rear of a motorcycle. On the surface it looks pretty stupid to do but Darksiders are adamant that their setup is the best. Why would it be the best?

Money.

A rear tire for my motorcycle runs pretty close to 300 dollars retail although it can be had for about 220 bucks at discount houses. A car tire with the same rating would be around a hundred bucks or a bit more. So thatís a savings right off. The motorcycle tire for my bike (itís a big heavy one) wears out at about 6000-7000 miles. The car tire is going to last 3 or 4 times as long Iíve been told.

Money.

So how do they handle? My bike is a Kawasaki Vulcan VN2000 or itís also know as the V2K. Itís the largest production V-twin made. About 500ccís larger t.an the ďbigĒ Harley. Itís a cruiser and cruisers arenít known for their ability to carve turns but since Iíve been riding bikes since the early 60′s and Iíve never stopped riding so Iím fairly experienced and I can get my V2K to carve pretty good, for a cruiser. The Darksiders insist that their bikeís handling is not negatively affected. Some go so far as to insist that their bike handles even better with a car tire back there. Now on a kawi forum when someone logs on and says their bike isnít handling better they talk about which car tire would have worked better OR what pressure the tire should be run at.

Bullshit.

So a buddy of mine has the same exact bike as I do. He went darkside and of course having drunk the kool-aid of darkside mania heís convinced his bike handles much better than it used to handle and of course much better than my bike. So I suggested we switch bikes for a few turns so I can get an idea of what itís all about.

Test ride

So off I go up Highway 140 in Oregon out of White City towards Klamath Falls. I get into my first sweeper and honestly it was ok. I was pretty certain that once I rolled over towards the sidewalls that Iíd be heading for a guardrail. That wasnít the case. OK, letís see what this baby can do so I upped the pace and took it into a highspeed sweeper at about 85mph.

Shit.

That baby went into a wobble that pretty much scared me to death. I rolled off slowly and the wobble went away. Well there were some switchbacks ahead, letís see what happens there. The transitions were horrible. Both left to right and right to left were anything but smooth. So up towards the top of the hill is where we were turning off to head back towards Butte Falls down Fish Lake Road. I pulled off and shut her down as did my buddy on my bike.

Excuses.

I gave him my opinion which was I did not like how it handled and that at speed it seemed pretty dangerous. Now I know he doesnít ride at the same pace I usually do when Iím alone but his first excuse was that I was riding too fast. He said if I chilled I would notice the transitions. That there wouldnít be a wobble. OK so in other words if I rode as though I was afraid to crash all would be ok. I canít argue that and so we switched back to our own bikes and went for a leisurely ride down Fish Lake Road.

So when I get home I log onto the forum and post my opinion. Now trust me talking to Darksiders in a way that isnít giving them a verbal blowjob only brings out the worst in them. The excuses at first piled up. Wrong tire pressure, wrong tire, worn out headset, worn out suspension. Itís a new fucking bike for crying out loud. Trying to reason with a darksider is like trying to reason with a religious fanatic or even worse with a liberal whoís lips are dripping with Obama juice. I told them that an experienced rider would not enjoy the darkside unless they were slow. That anyone who rode the bike close to itís limits would notice the poor handling.

Naw, they blasted me and blasted me to the extent that the forum moderators had to delete the entire thread. The forum is run by a Kawasaki dealer so I get why theyíd delete the thread. I donít understand why they allow these morons to continue to push a modification that Kawasaki itself is against. As a matter of fact every manufacturer of motorcycles AND tires are against this mod. So far the darksiders have only their ďwordĒ to take for it. No magazine will even do a road test to demonstrate the difference and even if that were done and it proved that darkside hurt handling and that decreased safetly were a result theyíd argue the point. There hasnít even been a tire or motorcycle engineer support their silly claims.

So why do they push for this modification?


There ya have it. An unbiased "test."
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:32 PM   #63
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http://darkside.nwff.info

Disclaimer: We do not advocate the use of car tires on motorcycles. We are only offering other people's experiences and it is up to each individual to decide the merits of car tires on motorcycles for themselves.

If you choose to put a car tire on a motorcycle, you do so at your own risk.


Gee, why would they say THAT? Did you ever hear Dunlop or Continental say, if you use our tires, it's AT YOUR OWN RISK?
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:34 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
A good summary of the argument for using tires not designed for the vehicle.

You read about sixteen loud posters who insisted they were right and had lots of profane names for anyone who questioned...so it must be true.





You do know that you are only talking to yourself, don't you?


"People can be divided into three groups: Those who make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:37 PM   #65
CaseyJones
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You do know that you are only talking to yourself, don't you?


"People can be divided into three groups: Those who make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened.
And, of course, those who cannot learn from the fatal mistakes of others. What's $1000 in savings going to be to your heirs, when they scrape you off the tarmac into a body bag?

Am I talking to myself? Okay. If the lemmings want to proceed off the cliff...that's their business. If they can't critically judge...that's Darwin in action.

I'm answering the Greek chorus who're all set to cheer these idiots as somehow more clever than ordinary mortals.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:52 PM   #66
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An observation.

Why are there no "negative reports"?

Partly because, "dork-siders" are applauded, by the peanut galleries.

Those who question the wisdom; who dare to suggest it's not a conspiracy by Big Tire to somehow "make huge profits"

(think of that; and think of what a tire manufacturer could make if it really WERE safe and he could sell his car tires to a motorcycle company)

...even though motorcycle-tire sales are an asterisk in their sales figures...

...anyone who challenges that is shouted down or banned. I expect it might happen to me, also.

So, do it, people! Save a thousand bucks in five years...or get killed. Meantime, get the gear; the headlight modulators; the body armor. Because you're really concerned about safety.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:17 PM   #67
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A test:

http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/viewt...20575&start=20

I run car tires on my sidecar rig and occasionally take the hack off. It's a really weird ride and it messes with the bikes cornering ability. You don't have dynamically neutral steering, there's no longer a direct relationship between how much you push and how much it leans, and it definitely doesn't stop as well. Then again, maybe I'm just a stickler since I like the twisties.

I ran a question by the dunlop rep at VIR who got info from the factory saying that car performance tires don't have nearly the same grip as regular motorcycle tires. They are designed with entirely different uses and thereby coefficients of friction in mind to suit their needs. The factory guys couldn't fathom why I do it on my sidecar (m/c tires wear faster and get weird wear profiles faster).


There ya have it. Someone who spent money to do what I knew better than to do and waste money on.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
And, of course, those who cannot learn from the fatal mistakes of others. What's $1000 in savings going to be to your heirs, when they scrape you off the tarmac into a body bag?

Am I talking to myself? Okay. If the lemmings want to proceed off the cliff...that's their business. If they can't critically judge...that's Darwin in action.

I'm answering the Greek chorus who're all set to cheer these idiots as somehow more clever than ordinary mortals.
I remember vividly how it screwed up the handling big time on my cruiser just by going up one size at the rear on my Intruder 1400. The steering was horrible, it took way more effort to bend the bike around a sharp corner at a brisk speed. It was never a road racer to start with , but the bikes willingness to go where it was pointed was gone. It felt very 'truckish' and it required way more effort to ride.

And that was with a bike tire, never mind a square cartire. It boggles the mind.

The other thing is......what if you get in an accident with your dark side? When an investigation is done and use of a totally inappropriate tire is found, where on a single track vehicle it is so critical to safe control; whose fault will it be? Will you even be covered?

Clearly for anyone to even consider such a thing; critical thinking as to possible consequences is in short supply.

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Old 07-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #69
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http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-...torcycles.htm/

In search of a balanced argument, I reached out to motorcycle manufacturers, tire manufacturers, heralded motorcycle safety experts and industry leaders to get their take on the subject. Not all are quoted here, but their input for this story was consistent.

Before we delve into any comparisons to car tires, let’s first look at motorcycle-specific tires themselves and the role they play. One of the first things that the motorcycle manufacturer points to is the tire as a vital consideration in the overall design of a motorcycle. Tire choice is never an afterthought for the manufacturer. Quite frankly, it can’t be. Nathan Boyd, P.E., Director, Product Integrity at Harley-Davidson explains, “We look at the motorcycle as a complete system where the tires, the wheels, the swingarm, the forks and the frame are designed to perform together. Changing even one of those components can alter the bike’s intended characteristics.” So naturally, tire specifications are developed for each machine and then tested extensively to assure the optimum performance the product development team was looking for is achieved. Any deviation from that formula would potentially influence handling and safety. With so much thought, analysis and evaluation put into making sure that tires work as part of the bike’s overall system, it’s easier to understand why the factories urge riders to stick with what has been proven to work by highly skilled engineers, researchers and testers. Boyd punctuates that point. “As a motorcycle manufacturer, we feel strongly that use of tires outside our specifications is inappropriate, including using automobile tires on motorcycles.” Like all manufacturers, Honda has developed clear tire guidelines and specifies approved tires for its motorcycles, including the Gold Wing, and recommends that owners refer to their owner’s manual when making tire choices.

Two BMWs. Both executing the same curve. Each with distinctly different handling characteristics and demands on tires.
Even among motorcycle-specific tires, there can be tradeoffs when fitting non-specified tires to certain bikes. Imagine the potential compromises associated with installing a tire that was never intended to function on a motorcycle in the first place.
A one-track mind: The differences between car and motorcycle tires

According to Mike Manning, Dunlop Motorcycle Product & Marketing Manager, “There are several considerations when looking at tire design and use for a single-track ‘camber’ vehicle such as a motorcycle vs. a 2-track vehicle like a car or truck. Tire profile, construction and compounds are developed specifically for each type of vehicle.” Why? Because cars and motorcycles handle differently. A lot differently. Take a look at the images of the sports car and the bike negotiating the same sharp left-hand bend. Although both are BMWs, their handling—and the demands on their tires—are remarkably unalike. The bike leans into the bend, rolling onto the inside edge of its tires. The car remains relatively flat or leans out of the curve, placing the vehicle’s weight on the outer edge of the outside tires. Is there any wonder why the tires for each are designed differently to handle the unique forces placed upon them?

As the Motorcycle Industry Council puts it in its Tire Guide (developed in cooperation with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation and the major tire and motorcycle manufacturers), “Because a motorcycle is a single-track vehicle and leans as it turns, motorcycle tires are quite different than car tires. Whereas car tires have a fairly flat profile and a contact patch that varies little in size or shape, motorcycle tires have a U-shaped profile and a contact patch that changes size and shape during cornering.” The shape of a motorcycle tire is designed to maintain a consistent contact patch throughout lean. A car tire in this application would be flat and fat when upright and thin and narrow when leaned. “Car tires and motorcycle tires are constructed and designed differently due to the different ways in which they are used,” warns John Mosby of Kumho tires, one of the auto tire brands often selected by Dark Siders. “Kumho passenger car tires are not made to absorb the reduced contact patch at high camber angles that motorcycle tires frequently experience. Because of this, durability can be affected by operating at such high camber angles, which can lead to tire failure. We strongly discourage anyone from using Kumho passenger car tires on their motorcycle.”

The profile of a motorcycle tire clearly has one large-diameter ring in the middle that tapers to smaller rings at each side (creating the U-shape). As the bike leans, this makes rounding curves much easier than if the tires were square like those of a car. Here’s a quick demonstration. Grab an empty soup can from the recycling bin and a tapered coffee cup (that empty caramel macchiato cup will do nicely). Lay each on its side and roll them across the table. The can, shaped like a car tire, will track straight. But the tapered coffee cup, because it has larger and smaller diameters much like one side of a motorcycle tire, will want to turn. As you lean your bike from the large ring in the center toward the smaller ring on either edge, you are also in effect reducing the gearing of your bike, thereby slowing it in a curve. That makes it easier to add throttle through the bend as prescribed by most riding proficiency experts, which in turn stabilizes the bike’s chassis for smooth cornering. The square car tire does not provide that advantage when leaned.
Beyond tire profile, sidewall stiffness plays an important role in motorcycle tires. The sidewall acts as a suspension component and must also provide enough rigidity to not only stand up to the unique forces placed upon it during cornering, but to also take advantage of those forces for precise handling. According to Dunlop, “When the bike is vertical, the bike’s suspension system does much of the work in keeping the tire in contact with the ground and controlling the ride. When the bike is leaned, there is less mechanical suspension and more tire suspension characteristics at play. The bike tires are designed and constructed specifically for this use.”

Motorcycle tires are uniquely designed to maximize the contact patch for greater grip at all lean angles.
Most modern motorcycle tires use multiple rubber compounds; harder compounds in the center to maximize tread life for highway riding and softer compounds toward the edges to maximize grip when the bike is leaned. Car tires have just one compound since they are not designed to be leaned over or to contend with camber forces.



While use of a car tire might have no severe consequences during normal riding, it could be problematic when performance really counts, such as when a threat unexpectedly appears directly in the path of the rider. The bike fitted with a car tire cannot be relied upon to respond as well as one with a motorcycle-specific tire when maximum traction and precise handling are needed. Is it ever acceptable to give up even a small degree of performance advantage when that small compromise could be enough to make an avoidable crash an unavoidable one? Stayin’ Safe founder Larry Grodsky once had a rider ask him if he really needed to wear protective gear. “No,” Larry replied. “Just wear it on the day you crash.” I suppose the same could be said for tires. Just use the motorcycle tires on the days when you need to avoid a crash.

The bottom line? The manufacturers, engineers and safety experts I spoke with all said the same thing; riders need to realize that this is not a good idea. The Motorcycle Industry Council puts it more directly, “Never mount a passenger car tire on a motorcycle rim; the flat profile of a car tire is incompatible with the dynamics of a vehicle that leans as it corners, and the section of the tire in contact with the rim (the ‘bead’) is incompatible with motorcycle rims.” A motorcycle calls for a tire that was developed to be a specialist in single-track vehicle dynamics. Dare I suggest that it’s not unlike the way brain surgery calls for a specialist in neurology. Would you turn to a gastroenterologist for that procedure because he or she has a lower hourly rate than a neurosurgeon? Both may be experts, outstanding in their respective fields, but neither would be a wise choice to fill the other’s role. As motorcyclists, we have need for a specialist: the one that was developed specifically for the demands of motorcycling.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #70
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
Where's the "scientific method" tests that show, going over Niagara Falls in a barrel, will kill you?

I've linked to writers who discussed the reasons why a cycle magazine would not literally DO what you endorse. Specifically, "Reckless Endangerment." They have liability issues to consider. That's why they don't disconnect the front brakes on some cycles to prove, as some chopper advocates used to claim, that the front brake was unnecessary.

And that's why they don't put a car tire, or a truck tire, or a tractor tire, on their cycles for a test.

They're smarter than you, IOW.
Going over the falls? No scientific method/test needed for the obvious, but there were certainly reported injuries and deaths from doing that in contrast to no reports of deaths caused by using a car tire on the rear of a bike. The argument given is substantively weak. Putting a car tire on a bike is not like going over the falls in a barrel; they don't even equate remotely. Why do you continue to try argument with loosely associated fragments of reasoning. It's embarrassing.

Why should a magazine even care what I do?

Their refusal to do test rides because of liability issues does not prove danger. It only proves that they fear something will go wrong and they would be held responsible; and they don't want to be held responsible. My own and others choice to ride with a car tire and be responsible for what may happen does not make it dangerous, it shows that we are not stifled with fear and that we accept and take responsibility for our actions. Apparently then, Darkside is not for the timid.

If you can, explain where do you see me endorsing reckless endangerment and by what standard are are you claiming reckless endangerment? They, the magazine folks and engineers you cite, claim liability issues as to why they state that they won't test. So how can they justify their claim of reckless endangerment without testing and positively showing results that it is dangerous to the degree that it should absolutely not be done or even anecdotal reports of instances of dangerous handling causing loss of control, mishaps or wrecks? (other than the one incident I referred to on a previous post) They can't and or won't. It's an unsubstantiated assertion. Seems like a cop out to me. Maybe they are unaware of waivers.

You seem to also be unaware that some motorcycle tire manufacturers have indeed started moving in the direction of making bike tires that are more car like and making steel belted radials. (well, one that I know of at least)

Smarter than me? in what way? That would be subjective since you and they know nothing about me except what you see here and what you might find elsewhere online. But having said that, here are a couple truisms: The world is full of educated idiots. People fear what they don't understand and will blindly attack what they fear..... If you only understood.

You have not convinced me in the least to not use a car tire. BTW, I think people notice the little personal digs directed at me. (that shouldn't be done as it sullies one's credibility) I tell my story, what I have done and why, encourage further research to find the info both pro and con without malice, and let them make their own decisions. And I defend my position against unreasonable, unsubstantiated assault.

More and more people are seeing the benefits and taking up the practice of using a car tire on their bikes and doing so safely and successfully. In the overall scheme of things pro-darkside would seem to be on the winning side of the debate. Darksiders can show results of the virtues and benefits of using a car tire on the rear of their bikes and have pointed out the error of naysayers reasoning and assumptions. They have invited naysayers to try and see for themselves. Naysayers flatly refuse and will only talk about how they think it is wrong having nothing substantial to back up their assertions . There is no credibility in that..

Sure the tires are different and have different handling qualities, that's a given and is accounted for. But even your article above still only SAYS “As a motorcycle manufacturer, we feel strongly that use of tires outside our specifications is inappropriate, including using automobile tires on motorcycles.” and still, there has not been any DEMONSTRATED proof provided. Feeling that something is inappropriate does mean it is dangerous. All this stuff they say can happen. but hasn't. So why even say that then. Balling up a bike from failed emergency maneuvers WILL happen to bikes whether they are using a MT or a CT. They have not demonstrated that one IS more likely to loose control over the other.

Throughout all this the naysayers ignore this one glaring fact, the elephant in the room if you will and that is: IT WORKS and works well.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:11 AM   #72
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So what kind of MPGs are you getting out of your new Burgy?
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:19 AM   #73
CaseyJones
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Their refusal to do test rides because of liability issues does not prove danger. It only proves that they fear something will go wrong and they would be held responsible; and they don't want to be held responsible. My own and others choice to ride with a car tire and be responsible for what may happen does not make it dangerous, it shows that we are not stifled with fear and that we accept and take responsibility for our actions. Apparently then, Darkside is not for the timid.
For obvious reasons. It's also not for people who understand some basics of tire design

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
If you can, explain where do you see me endorsing reckless endangerment and by what standard are are you claiming reckless endangerment? They, the magazine folks and engineers you cite, claim liability issues as to why they state that they won't test. So how can they justify their claim of reckless endangerment without testing and positively showing results that it is dangerous to the degree that it should absolutely not be done or even anecdotal reports of instances of dangerous handling causing loss of control, mishaps or wrecks? (other than the one incident I referred to on a previous post) They can't and or won't. It's an unsubstantiated assertion. Seems like a cop out to me. Maybe they are unaware of waivers.
I see you stridently insisting on something that new riders who are not engineering-oriented, may think to be "clever."

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Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
You seem to also be unaware that some motorcycle tire manufacturers have indeed started moving in the direction of making bike tires that are more car like and making steel belted radials. (well, one that I know of at least)
I see the opposite. A neighbor had picked up two vintage Hondas; barn finds that were carefully put away. They have OEM tires on them; and it's interesting how greatly the tread design has changed. Cycle tires forty years ago had much the same tread as car tires. Today, of course, they just have diagonal slashes across them - to channel water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
Smarter than me? in what way? That would be subjective since you and they know nothing about me except what you see here and what you might find elsewhere online. But having said that, here are a couple truisms: The world is full of educated idiots. People fear what they don't understand and will blindly attack what they fear..... If you only understood.
I know you're rejecting all rational argument and getting louder and more strident. In addition to making an unwise choice, you're discussing it like someone who's not very intelligent.

See, some people can make these calls. In listening to pro-and-con about tires; and about other persons. And then others...they just find reasons to go ahead and do what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
Throughout all this the naysayers ignore this one glaring fact, the elephant in the room if you will and that is: IT WORKS and works well.
I'm not going to convince you; and I'm not trying to. At this point I'm just answering your...insistence...for others.

http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-...torcycles.htm/
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2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:37 AM   #74
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TheReaper!, I'm sorry for for the temporary takeover of the thread with the darkside discussion. It just kind of grabbed me and ran.

That's a very nice bike you have there and you stole it. I'm keeping an eye out for a good used 400 to take the place of a Reflex and a Silverwing but probably not able to actually get until next year. Still have have your harem of Big Rucks?

No problem , it's been rather amusing don't you think

I would sell the Reflex too , to heavy for that 250cc motor IMO .
Silverwings I like , plenty of power but needs a good seat .
All that said , nothing quite like the 650 Burgs , I'm really glad
I had a chance to get one on the cheap . I would never buy a new
new 650 because of the CVT problem , but a nice used one for 3K
to me is well worth the risk .

Argue on boys

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Old 07-05-2013, 01:04 PM   #75
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We all make cost/benefit decisions regarding safety. Max safety would be not to ride a bike at all. If we do ride there are a few well known safety decisions we all know about and make according to our particular value systems:

Helmet vs. no helmet: most of us choose helmet because it is probably the highest benefit in case of a spill vs. the cost in money and discomfort.

To me, the 40% or so survival margin benefit is well worth the cost.

Half vs. open face vs modular vs full: increasing safety benefit weighed against increasing discomfort and cost.

I prefer an open face helmet because I consider the wind in my face an important part of the experience, but not a half helmet because of the wind noise. It's a compromise with safety that many, perhaps most, would not choose.

ATGATT: Usually not the life/death margin a helmet gives in case of a spill, but often can be the difference between walking away vs. a hospital stay. But generally at considerable cost in money, inconvenience, and discomfort, especially in hot climes.

I'll compromise here: gloves and hightop shoes, maybe a mesh jacket, but otherwise nothing special. If I had to layer up for every ride, I'd just forego it all and drive the cage. Others disagree and good for them. It seems to me that if you are comfortable with it, having an extra layer of safety is for the best.

Hi visibility colors vs. what looks best: This seems to be a no brainer given how little cagers pay attention to bikers. But I suppose it's at least somewhat age related, with old codgers like me less invested in how we are seen as long as we ARE seen.

ABS vs regular brakes: Hard information is sketchy but it does seem ABS offers a significant safety margin, perhaps nearly as much as wearing a helmet.

I'm going for the ABS. It seems like an easy way to add an extra margin of safety, and it only cost money, no comfort or inconvenience hit at all.

Darkside vs. motorcycle rubber: It's certainly cheaper not having to replace tires so often, but there is also a safety cost. Obviously, as seen here on this thread, people disagree on the degree of safety compromise, but it's willful avoidance of the facts to insist there is no compromise at all.

I see it like the ABS brakes: it only costs money to go with approved motorcycle tires, no rider discomfort or inconvenience at all. Plus likely better handling. So it's an easy decision for me, I'll stick with the motorcycle tires.

My point here is the decision go Darkside is simply one of several cost/benefit compromises we need to decide on. It's not a religion issue, and no need to get so riled up about it one way or the other. Just factor it into the other safety decisions you need to make, and ride on.
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