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Old 06-14-2013, 03:00 PM   #256
RaY YreKa
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Originally Posted by jnor View Post
I think it's another bike there is no market for........

I think a "light sport touring" bike is a market:

475-500lbs

100HP

Upright ergo's

Hard bags

heated grips

shaft drive

But I also thought Yamaha should have updated the Gen1 FZ1 with better suspension, and fuel injection instead of make another "sportbike like" FZ1

They can park these on the floor next to the S10's
I can't name any mid-size shaftie bikes except Moto Guzzi and the Honda Deauville (which has been withdrawn from the USA market).
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:01 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the Street got a displacement bump in the comming years to compete.
The Street already got a displacement bump. It's called the Tiger 800, which is basically a stroked 675.

Actually, the Tiger 800 (street version) is a much better basis for comparison with the new FZ-09 than is the Street Triple R, although the Tiger 800 weighs more due to its touring/ADV design objectives.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:09 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by RaY YreKa View Post
I can't name any mid-size shaftie bikes except Moto Guzzi and the Honda Deauville (which has been withdrawn from the USA market).
Mid-sized SPORT Touring bikes don't have shaft drives - they are too heavy.

The Architype mid-sized ST is the VFR-800, and I agree, it was too heavy for what it was.

The current iteration is the BMW F800S/ST/GT, also chain driven. It is too expensive and with too poor a suspension for what it is. However it is just about perfect for many women, who are now discovering this bike.

I still want a Sprint 675 as my "perfect" SPORT Tourer. Perhaps now with Yamaha's new triple, a new competitive spirit will drive either Triumph or Yamaha to provide me with something "closer" to what I want.

[P.S. I'm only 5'10" and 175 lbs. - my perfect ST will also fit many women who are searching for a bike that fits between the new CB500s / EX650s and something like the BMW F800's and R1200's in terms of price and performance.]
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #259
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Early Laverda triples had 180* cranks. But, there are lots of other methods employed to balance engines of different configurations these days.

But to have a true "cross-plane" crank you have to have the crank pins at 90* to one another. And then to realize its benefits, it has to be configured in such a way as to eliminate the inertial torque applied to the crank.
From the press release...

http://boxscorenews.com/all-new-yama...-p57058-68.htm

Quote:
Yamaha’s ‘crossplane philosophy’ for linear torque output

The MT-09’s all-new 3-cylinder engine has been developed to embody the essence of Yamaha’s ‘crossplane philosophy’ which is designed to ensure instant throttle response together with strong low to mid-range torque. One of the inherent characteristics of the 3-cylinder engine design is its linear torque output, and it is this strong and responsive power delivery that defines the fundamental character of the new MT-09.
The all-new engine runs with a 120 crank that delivers a regularly-spaced firing sequence at 0, 240 and 480, and it is these even firing intervals that ensure a linear delivery of the massive levels of available torque, together with an exciting and satisfying high rpm power feeling. Compared to an in-line 4-cylinder engine with a 180 crank, the MT-09’s 3-cylinder powerplant transmits a stronger feeling of combustion torque to the rider because its combustion torque waves and composite torque waves are virtually identical.
The MT-09’s 3-cylinder design is also inherently lighter, slimmer and more compact when compared to parallel 4-cylinder designs, being around 10kg less than the Yamaha FZ8. This has given our designers greater freedom to produce a correspondingly compact and agile-handling sports chassis. Overall engine width has also been minimized by pressure inserting the gears on the crank web, a process which allows the space between the cylinders to be reduced.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:54 PM   #260
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Ahhh, so it's not a true cross-plane crank after all. Same as all other triples then with the exception of the early Jota. Just more marketing dept. crap trying to capitalize on the success of the R1 design, and make people think it's something special. And here I thought they had developed something novel and "new".

Not to say it's a bad design, but don't try to make people think it's more than it is...
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:59 PM   #261
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you know the bike mags are going to do a shootout with this thing and the Triumph as soon as they get their hands on one. True, they aren't across the board comparable because of the difference in displacement but Id love to see how they stack up together.
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Old 06-14-2013, 04:17 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
....The current iteration is the BMW F800S/ST/GT, also chain driven. It is too expensive and with too poor a suspension for what it is. However it is just about perfect for many women, who are now discovering this bike.

I still want a Sprint 675 as my "perfect" SPORT Tourer. Perhaps now with Yamaha's new triple, a new competitive spirit will drive either Triumph or Yamaha to provide me with something "closer" to what I want....
I think you're on to something here. The F800ST struck me as having the perfect sport-touring ergo's. But I also thought it slightly too expensive, and I've never been a fan of parallel twins. A Yamaha I3 version of that would have me shopping.

It's already been mentioned, but worth repeating, the FZ-09 is a hell of a lot of bike for $7,990...I mean it lists for the same price as the Versys or Suzuki SFV/Gladius! So in the VALUE sense then, Yamaha DID change the sport motorcycle world. At least in my penny-pinching mind it did.
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Old 06-14-2013, 04:37 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Randy View Post
Ahhh, so it's not a true cross-plane crank after all. Same as all other triples then with the exception of the early Jota. Just more marketing dept. crap trying to capitalize on the success of the R1 design, and make people think it's something special. And here I thought they had developed something novel and "new".

Not to say it's a bad design, but don't try to make people think it's more than it is...
There are a few things to note here..

Anything where the crank is not 180 Degree is cross plane. Whether that be 179, 90, 120 or what ever the planes will cross.
If you have a "cross plane philosophy" that means that engines you produce will more than likely be not 180 degrees, if that is their thing.
YAMAHA is not BMW, so while they may be fairly clever they tend not to do clever for clevers sake. That is for a few reasons.
1) They would prefer the simpler more reliable path.
2)They can't charge $15,000 because [insert some subjective reason here why they have to be cheaper]. SO while they may want to do really clever but probably expensive complicated and possibly unreliable things they must concentrate more on the best bang for the bucks reliable engineering. So a simple "natural" cross plane is what we have. SO be it. It's probably a bit lighter and splits the difference between the complicated IL4 and the simpler twins. If yopu went too hard on a 90 Degree offset, you would end up adding weight and complexity just to get the same performance.
3)They tried that a few times. Here is one example..


Most of the time all I see is people looking at weight/power/feature list/price/ how it feels on a test ride/mag reviews and have no interest in the inner technical details and tradeoffs. Very few people want to go into that much detail. A few percent do but not a huge percentage.

Personally if they were to go more expensive /' exotic, I would probably prefer they concentrated on the suspenders and some more lightweight components. If they did a "factory" version of this for 30% more I think that would be a good thing for some people.

It is certainly do able at a reasonable [by European standards] price. Whether the general public would actually part with $10,500 for this bike with top shelf components and 170KG CF laden bike is anyones guess.

Would they cough up $9000.00 for something that looks no different on paper but has a complicated dog leg balanced 90 degree triple?

AT the moment we have what seems like a very respectable package at a very good price, that hopefully will make a few manufacturers look at their prices / models and step up a bit. Win for consumers it seems Assuming the press / consumers get behind it and it doesn't have too many "Sake moments" in the design.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #264
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Love the purple! Reminds me of my old '75 TX500.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:01 PM   #265
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Much more goes into a good motorcycle the hp and tq........ Suspension, geometry, comfort, handling. Just say'n..

Regards, Paul
Well, obviously.

Suspension is easy and relatively cheap to upgrade if one is so inclined, I just ride on the road, and wouldn't be putting this bike on the track, so I wouldn't feel the need to buy full Ohlins.

I am going on faith that the geometry and handling are good, because the reviews are positive, and Yamaha isn't retarded.

Comfort is subjective, and usually sorted by tweaking the seat, lowering the pegs, etc to fit the rider.

Still don't think this bike can be beat at the MSRP listed, and I am excited to try one even though I absolutely zero need as I already have a naked bike to play on. I think it is that cool.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:05 PM   #266
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So... Is this a bike for the guys who want a "streetfightered" sportbike out of the box, where they can't/don't have to do any wrenching?

I trying to see the value of this vs. buying a dinged up CBZXR, stripping the bodywork off it, lopping off the sub-frame, and putting motocross bars on it? Or is it the same thing as the Japanese Co.s coming into "custom" cruizer market to cash in on the tail of that market?

And why the expense of developing a triple? Did I miss where that was spelled out?
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:54 PM   #267
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So... Is this a bike for the guys who want a "streetfightered" sportbike out of the box, where they can't/don't have to do any wrenching?

I trying to see the value of this vs. buying a dinged up CBZXR, stripping the bodywork off it, lopping off the sub-frame, and putting motocross bars on it? Or is it the same thing as the Japanese Co.s coming into "custom" cruizer market to cash in on the tail of that market?

And why the expense of developing a triple? Did I miss where that was spelled out?
I suppose the value is NOT having to buy a dinged up CBZXR, stripping the bodywork off it, lopping off the sub-frame, and putting motocross bars, and then actually having to live with a dinged up CBZXR, with a lopped off sub-frame, with motocross bars.

OK, I'm just poking at you. Yeah, I think Yamaha intended to market an out-of-the-box streetfighter for an incredibly low price, which at first glance they seem to have accomplished. They're trying something a bit new (for a Japanese manufacturer) to gain market share.

As they should be doing.

They developed the triple, based on what I've read, to be an innovative platform for their sporting bike lines. My interpretation: They want to be a bit different and better than the competition, and think a triple which is narrower than a inline four, more conducive to mass-centralization, and likely lower-cost to manufacture than either a I4 or V2 (my speculation) will help them get there.

Still don't know how they did that all and manage to keep the price at $7,990, but they did.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:59 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by MCGMB View Post
I suppose the value is NOT having to buy a dinged up CBZXR, stripping the bodywork off it, lopping off the sub-frame, and putting motocross bars, and then actually having to live with a dinged up CBZXR, with a lopped off sub-frame, with motocross bars.

.


Plus you get a new bike smell with it.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:13 PM   #269
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And why the expense of developing a triple? Did I miss where that was spelled out?
Should YAMAHA now do an XS650 resurrection rat bike?

This engine cost is supposed to be spread over a few models, so YAMAHA may be just anticipating that. It's not a very complicated bike either, so probably easy and quick to make.

They make a few bikes, and not all of the bike has to be made in Japan, so maybe, like most of the Euro brands, the less "techo" bits will be sourced of low cost countries.

The other reason is they are picking up on the fact that not that many people are that interested in 200Hp crotch rockets which are just neutered by electronics anyway AND where you end up riding a 1/2 HP pushbike 6 months of the year because you don't have a license.

Both Honda and YAMAHA are trying a more realistic approach where normal people can have fun at sane speeds.

So it depends on how many people are realistic VS delusional as to whether this takes off I suppose. They are trying good fun rather than race track wannabe's.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:37 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by JamesG View Post
So... Is this a bike for the guys who want a "streetfightered" sportbike out of the box, where they can't/don't have to do any wrenching?

I trying to see the value of this vs. buying a dinged up CBZXR, stripping the bodywork off it, lopping off the sub-frame, and putting motocross bars on it? Or is it the same thing as the Japanese Co.s coming into "custom" cruizer market to cash in on the tail of that market?

And why the expense of developing a triple? Did I miss where that was spelled out?


Have you ever riden a triple? I bought my first last year (a Triumph 955) and it has by far the best engine of the 11 bikes I've owned from one to four cylinders....torque like a twin at very low revs but pulls hard and accelerates like a four when wound up and the triple shriek at high revs is incredible, waaay more character than a four. If Yamaha got this engine right (seems highly likely) this bike should be a big hit at $8K and 414 lbs., $3K and 100 lbs. less than a Tiger 800. Triumph has put triples back on the map in a big way so it is not surprising that finally at least one of the big 4 is now making one again too (all but Honda made them in the past...personally I'd like to see them all make triples again eventually)

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