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Old 06-16-2013, 07:54 PM   #61
capriccio
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Last time I visited the BMW website i remember seen something about E-fuel, What is that all about? Anyone here know.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:56 PM   #62
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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...8.00105.x/full

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
How's about you provide a scientific, peer review study to support your claim. Not something funded by petroleum btw.
Goodbye ethanol pimp.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:13 PM   #64
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Goodbye ethanol pimp.
So long, misinformed tool.
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:23 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by capriccio View Post
Last time I visited the BMW website i remember seen something about E-fuel, What is that all about? Anyone here know.
It's called E-gas and it is BMWs name for fly-by-wire. It has nothing to do with ethanol.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:05 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Please provide some legit scientific evidence (like peer reviewed papers/references) that e10 from corn ethanol use results in net CO2 footprint reduction. By that I mean across production and end use. I'd be very surprised if you could, because last time I looked closely at this is was pretty much universally understood that it can't. Cellulosic as I said is a different story, holy grail but has problems still. Somewhat cold fusion-ish, great if it worked but it doesn't yet. But that has not stopped the bait and switch from corn ethanol producers.

By all means if you can provide actual science to support your conclusions do so and I will consider it.

Back to mixtures on lawnmower & small gas (4 cycle) engines. IIRC as a kid in the 60's I could adjust the mixture on my lawnmower. However now the EPA has banned that feature and you can only purchase tamper-proof carbs and rebuild kits with fixed jetting. This is their way of meddling with us while we mow the lawn. If you try to buy a rebuild kit is says "not intended for use in gas with greater than 10% ethanol". Because it will make the motor run too lean.

Now NSA & the EPA-Climate Stasis Hive Mind has probably identified me as a terrorist and targeted a cruise missile strike on....
Fred, you're asking for stuff that is all part of the great Kabuki. We are being manipulated and facts are hard to come by.

You're not going to find this on the web, and you can call BS on it, but I was there and I remember it like it was yesterday. In the first Arab oil embargo (which was run by American oil men working for ARAMCO in NYC) we were importing about 6% of our oil pre-embargo, the rest came from home grown wells. At the absolute height of the embargo when lines were around the block because "there was no oil" we were importing 14% of our oil. During the Bush administration when the price of gas was going off the charts, the news analysts were ALL predicting $200+ a barrel oil and China and India were sucking up ALL the oil. Now we find that the good old USA has LOTS of oil (That comes from the USGS by the way). If you believe that whatever the cost of production is determines pump prices, you delude yourself.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:22 AM   #67
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So....good or bad for the bike?
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:35 AM   #68
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So....good or bad for the bike?
Not esp. good, but not bad either if you can adjust mixture to compensate. Some minor reduction in mileage. This is for e10. Lot of manuf are coming out against e15 for various reasons.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:09 AM   #69
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Ethenol has the energy content of about 67% that of gas. So 10% of a 33% reduction is 3.3%. It's noticeable...but not a deal breaker, eh?
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:10 AM   #70
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Sadly, the Ethanol Pimp declined to provide us with information supporting his claims, but that does not mean I am uninterested in finding out what is going on.

For those of you with open minds on the subject, here is some reading material. Draw your own conclusions. It is hard to sift through the spin, for and against. The Ethanol Lobby has now joined the ranks of the Oil Lobby, the Agriculture Lobby, the Entitlements Lobby, the Global Cooling (oops I mean Warming) (ooops again I mean Climate Change) Lobby, etc.

Disclosure: I have nothing to do with any industry. I am a trained scientist (retired) PhD applied math, lot of time debunking bad science & engineering for the military, and then some for the weather futures industry. I have worked closely with groups of PhD climatologists so I get some of what they are doing (both right and wrong). Here is a sampling.

Anyway, landmark study by UC Berkely on ethanol. Not exactly unequivocal praise, read it carefully and note the caveats:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/r..._ethanol.shtml

Next up, frm CARD (center for ag & rural develop. Iowa State)

http://www.card.iastate.edu/policy_b...y.aspx?id=1155

Interesting comments from Mother Jones (hardly an oil mouthpiece) on the economics of this (did you know up to Jan of last year, ethanol growers got a $.45 /gallon tax CREDIT?) wow, the econ studies of cost to consumer never mention that):

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...-little-better

Finally a very good Wiki entry with lots of refferences, pay special attention to the ILUC issues surrounding carbon footprint calculations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol..._United_States

You have to understand that it's all about the details now. The naive claim in the early days was corn ethanol was a a renewable fuel so it should be carbon neutral (you grow it, it takes CO2 out of the atmosphere, you burn it, you put it back). Not so fast, it is pretty energy intensive to produce (basically like a still making moonshine), to grow, and all the other tiny details of production and transportation. Also frequently neglected is the secondary environmental impact of fertilizers and so forth in its many possible forms.

The driving factor at this point in carbon footprint estimation is ILUC or indirect land uses changes. What this means is what does it cost in terms of CO2 to divert land from other uses to producing grain for ethanol. It turns out a whole lot if you are allowed to consider it globally, as in US farmland diverted to or cleared for ethanol production then this causes rainforest clear cutting in other parts of the world to make up for food production. Very complicated.

The other big issue is what is the energy efficiency of the reactors used to cook corn ethanol. Some of the wild overstatements of the ethanol industry WRT carbon reduction use numbers from the latest or projected efficiencies from R&D reactors (stills) and apply it to the whole production. Some of these are promising and "may" approach anticipated cellulosic effieciencies. But the cost of converting the whole industry is the question here and usually not addressed.

Also all of these studies (flawed or not) compare net CO2 levels of 100% eth use to 100% gas use to 2005 level gasoline production & use footprints. Oil industry has gotten more efficient too, esp as the Bakken fields come on line (can you imagine energy cost of transporting raw crude from the middle east).

So even with that flawed analysis approach and fuzzy math, it looks like the absolute best you get with current tech in place now for ehtanol vs 2005 methods of oil, 100% vs 100% you get at most approx. 15% net carbon reduction. So e10 you'd get 1.5%.

Now what is funny here is I am a climate skeptic (based on fact and work with real climatologists not funded by government grants) so I don't even buy the idea that this is a good idea in the first place.

Anyway I am done here, draw your own conclusions.

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:13 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by cjack View Post
Ethenol has the energy content of about 67% that of gas. So 10% of a 33% reduction is 3.3%. It's noticeable...but not a deal breaker, eh?
Nope, as I said it is minor and can be tuned out automatically with modern EFI systems. With higher e % it gets harder and some manuf have come out against e15 for example, I assume for these reasons. Mainly it is a fuel system flow capacity issue as far as I know.

The whole notion of it rotting out fuel lines and rubber bits seems to be false.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:06 AM   #72
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What is an "ethanol grower"?

That $.45 tax credit went to the fuel blenders. Fuel blenders are oil companies and the tax credit was to entice then to use ethanol before the EPA mandated its use.

I gave you the basic inputs required to produce corn and a link to one of many easily found scientific papers. You give us Mother Jones? Then you throw in the caveat that you are a global warming doubter because the scientists and climatologists involved are on the government payroll. OMG!
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:17 AM   #73
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Fred, you're asking for stuff that is all part of the great Kabuki. We are being manipulated and facts are hard to come by.

You're not going to find this on the web, and you can call BS on it, but I was there and I remember it like it was yesterday. In the first Arab oil embargo (which was run by American oil men working for ARAMCO in NYC) we were importing about 6% of our oil pre-embargo, the rest came from home grown wells. At the absolute height of the embargo when lines were around the block because "there was no oil" we were importing 14% of our oil. During the Bush administration when the price of gas was going off the charts, the news analysts were ALL predicting $200+ a barrel oil and China and India were sucking up ALL the oil. Now we find that the good old USA has LOTS of oil (That comes from the USGS by the way). If you believe that whatever the cost of production is determines pump prices, you delude yourself.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicle...t_fotw376.html

Dude, not even close. In 1973 we were importing 1/3 of our oil. That's why the oil embargo was so damaging.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:21 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
What is an "ethanol grower"?
ic inputs required to produce corn and a link to one of many easily found scientific papers. You give us Mother Jones?
I gave us Berkeley and Iowa State. And many references in the Wiki article. I gave you Mother Jones as editorial commentary and stated it as such. Anyway, I'm done with you, and will let other folks draw their own conclusions.

edit: note to others. If you pay attention to the type of hysterical misdirection of his rebuttals, it is a hallmark of someone who either does not understand what he is saying or more often, is hiding something. Or lying.

fred flintstone screwed with this post 06-17-2013 at 06:28 AM
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:25 AM   #75
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in the UK petrol companies are allowed up to 10% ethanol to reduce costs my 23 year old Honda hasn't had a problem running on the E10 at all, but i've never run the bike on anything that hasn't had a small amount of ethanol in it.
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