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Old 06-05-2013, 06:28 PM   #31
RocketJohn
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:00 PM   #32
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80kWh battery capacity charged in 20 minutes at 480VAC input (without losses) would require 500Amps, not really a big deal. To run one charger from solar (no storage) would require a 300kWAC array @STC or about 400kWAC to get real use out of (morning and evening). Even with 20% efficient panels, the array would cover @14,000sqft for the panel area and about 20,000sqft for a real installation with access ways, cable ways and room for the inverter and switchgear, about 2/5 of an acre for he solar alone.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by troidus View Post
He was talking about being able to charge 4-10 cars simultaneously, and eventually running the chargers from solar panels. I don't see how the charging stations can be unstaffed if they're planning to swap packs, and I don't see how they can offer free charging if they have to have staff.

I think the current rapid charger is 480V, so who knows what voltage the new 20-minute charger will be.
Musk has "tweeted" that it will take less time than filling a car with gasoline. What kind of battery can be charged that fast?
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Musk has "tweeted" that it will take less time than filling a car with gasoline. What kind of battery can be charged that fast?
Haven't you heard about putting your cell phone battery in the microwave and charging it in 1 minute? I bet they could do that with the car batteries if they build a microwave you could drive your entire car into.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:51 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Musk has "tweeted" that it will take less time than filling a car with gasoline. What kind of battery can be charged that fast?
Dunno, but one thing about the Tesla packs is that they're made up of a crapload of small cells, so maybe he has figured out a massively parallel way to charge them and knows just how much those 18650 cells can be pushed. Or you're right that they're just going to swap packs, but then he shouldn't also be talking about a new type of charger.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:45 AM   #36
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I recently spent 5 years at a Mitsubishi dealership, and a couple of years ago the new iMiev demo came down from our other branch 40km away - it didn't have enough fuel in the tank to get back home. We had to change one of our outlet plugs over to charge it, although it's just the standard plug with a larger earth pin, other stuff still works on the outlet. It had 2 charge ports, one is for fast charging...and Mitsubishi won't supply the fast charge cable because it shortens battery life. Changing the battery pack on an iMiev is a simple 2 or 3 hour job, using a forklift to remove the battery.

Would be great around town, but you can't travel out of the city. It only cost 3 times the price of the iCar it's based on.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:57 AM   #37
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Dunno, but one thing about the Tesla packs is that they're made up of a crapload of small cells, so maybe he has figured out a massively parallel way to charge them and knows just how much those 18650 cells can be pushed. Or you're right that they're just going to swap packs, but then he shouldn't also be talking about a new type of charger.
What new type of charger? The actual charger is built into the car. The "Supercharger" is just a D.C. power supply.

Even if they charged all the cells in some sort of parallel way, that would still be 80Kwh in 20 minutes. A lot of energy and a lot of heat.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:19 PM   #38
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What new type of charger? The actual charger is built into the car. The "Supercharger" is just a D.C. power supply.

Even if they charged all the cells in some sort of parallel way, that would still be 80Kwh in 20 minutes. A lot of energy and a lot of heat.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

They bypass the onboard charger. And they're charging to 50% capacity in 20 minutes and claiming that that's 200 miles of range, enough to get to the next charge port. According to the linked article, subject to demand, you can stay connected to continue charging beyond the 20 minutes. They also say that the charge rate may be reduced if the ambient temp is over 100. My guess is that they're using the onboard cooling system to pull heat out of the pack during charging.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:19 PM   #39
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I recently spent 5 years at a Mitsubishi dealership, and a couple of years ago the new iMiev demo came down from our other branch 40km away - it didn't have enough fuel in the tank to get back home.
I saw a Miev yesterday. The owner said it was $150/mo lease and a 90 mile range. I thought it was a pretty dinky non-descript car -- but everyone was kinda talking about it with amazement.

There's been quite a push towards battery electric vehicles in the past two years. However, I feel strongly that daily battery maintenance required of ownership will make owners start to wonder why they completely restructured their lives around the needs of a fucking car
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:32 PM   #40
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I saw a Miev yesterday. The owner said it was $150/mo lease and a 90 mile range. I thought it was a pretty dinky non-descript car -- but everyone was kinda talking about it with amazement.

There's been quite a push towards battery electric vehicles in the past two years. However, I feel strongly that daily battery maintenance required of ownership will make owners start to wonder why they completely restructured their lives around the needs of a fucking car
And we haven't as a society done this with cars and car travel in general?

I'm not sure why we cant just start making economical small IC powered vehicles ( cars..), like the rest of the world does. I guess I'm jaded as I'm fine with two motorbikes that get near to over 100 mpg. It seems a well designed small car could get 60-65 mpg with regular gasoline and a light foot.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by troidus View Post
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

They bypass the onboard charger. And they're charging to 50% capacity in 20 minutes and claiming that that's 200 miles of range, enough to get to the next charge port. According to the linked article, subject to demand, you can stay connected to continue charging beyond the 20 minutes. They also say that the charge rate may be reduced if the ambient temp is over 100. My guess is that they're using the onboard cooling system to pull heat out of the pack during charging.

No, read it one more time. It's 200 miles on a FULL charge, only 100 miles on a 20-30 minute "quick" charge.

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The Model S can travel about 200 miles, or for about three hours, when fully charged. With the network, it can be recharged to 50 percent of its battery capacity in 20 to 30 minutes,
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:07 PM   #42
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Got in on the First Response!!




That picture is historic for me as it's the first electric vehicle I've seen parked in a residential driveway and plugged in... I think that will be much more common in years to come...
I should've taken a pic of my neighbor's Volt with the extension cord running to it. But they are moving now and it is no longer out front.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:48 PM   #43
potatoho
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And we haven't as a society done this with cars and car travel in general?
It's the daily maintenance of a battery electric vehicle which is the deal killer. Charging isn't passive like pouring gasoline. It a dynamic process that's just as fallible as every other consumer electronic -- in that once you get fancy and set up the timed charge (for better cost) it becomes more like a Windows upgrade where you cross your fingers that it'll work out by morning. And for charging while out and about, there's story after story on the forums of charging station incompatibilities, inexplicable charging rates (dependent on which port you connect), even charger corruption where the car's port or firmware gets damaged.

It's not that big of a deal, just early adopter problems. However, cars are a particularly unwelcome thing to have reliability issues. That's what I meant, are people ready to have their car create so much drama in their lives.

The other thing is parts cost. Insane! To sip the juice they put in the most expensive, efficient components. Having to pay $600 for headlights and other thrift store level parts goes against the whole ethos of an economy car.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:56 PM   #44
troidus
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What new type of charger? The actual charger is built into the car. The "Supercharger" is just a D.C. power supply.

Even if they charged all the cells in some sort of parallel way, that would still be 80Kwh in 20 minutes. A lot of energy and a lot of heat.
ABB has a bus charging system that supplies 400 kW in a 15-second burst during stops, then they top off the pack at the end of the line in 3-4 minutes. Then they give it a full charge overnight. No info on total battery capacity, though.

http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/se...Tosa+e-bus.pdf

If 400 kW can be sustained, that would permit fully charging an 80 kWh Tesla in 12 minutes. (Unless my math is way wrong.)
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #45
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Musk has "tweeted" that it will take less time than filling a car with gasoline. What kind of battery can be charged that fast?
Flow battery? Essentially it's a battery with changeable electrolyte.

You would pull up to the electricity pump (no joke), hook up and in and out hose, and change out the electrolyte.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

Just a guess. Regular batteries do not like quick charge.

As to the discussions about PV arrays to charge, you could have an array that charged a bank of ultracapacitors, and then go from that to the car. Unless the station is charging cars non-stop, you can reduce the size of your array pretty easily.
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