ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Fluff > Shiny things
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-11-2013, 06:07 AM   #46
Tmaximusv
Studly Adventurer
 
Tmaximusv's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Gateway to the Sandhills
Oddometer: 674
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamaGeek View Post
And we haven't as a society done this with cars and car travel in general?

I'm not sure why we cant just start making economical small IC powered vehicles ( cars..), like the rest of the world does. I guess I'm jaded as I'm fine with two motorbikes that get near to over 100 mpg. It seems a well designed small car could get 60-65 mpg with regular gasoline and a light foot.
You could. But.. Have you traveled a major interstate lately? Where I live driving a small car on them is worthy of suicide watch. A large percentage of the vehicle as weigh over 85000 lbs and move around the roadway like slithering snakes. Add the pickups with stock trailers and SUVs and its like bringing a squirt gun to a tank fight. And yes, I do drive mid size cages and I avoid the interstates with them. I won't even try riding there with my GS.
__________________
Illegitemi non-corundum est.
Tmaximusv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 05:02 PM   #47
MiteyF
Beastly Adventurer
 
MiteyF's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan... temporarily
Oddometer: 1,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmaximusv View Post
You could. But.. Have you traveled a major interstate lately? Where I live driving a small car on them is worthy of suicide watch. A large percentage of the vehicle as weigh over 85000 lbs and move around the roadway like slithering snakes. Add the pickups with stock trailers and SUVs and its like bringing a squirt gun to a tank fight. And yes, I do drive mid size cages and I avoid the interstates with them. I won't even try riding there with my GS.
When I attended school and got my degree in vehicle design and engineering, I had grand visions of building the Volkswagen Beetle of the 21st century. Thanks to safety standards, there is no possible way to do this. Americans' love of airbags outweighs their love of economy and driving experience.
__________________
People tell me I have a motorcycle problem. I tell them, I may have problems, but motorcycles are the solution.
MiteyF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 06:38 PM   #48
Jimmy the Heater
Tilting the Horizon
 
Jimmy the Heater's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: WA Palouse area
Oddometer: 1,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by potatoho View Post
I saw a Miev yesterday. The owner said it was $150/mo lease and a 90 mile range. I thought it was a pretty dinky non-descript car -- but everyone was kinda talking about it with amazement.

I'm sorry I'm picking out just one sentence in your post, but nondescript? Really? That would imply that it looks like many other cars on the road. The only thing that looks even close to this is a Tata Nano and that will never come to the US. It is certainly not as beautiful as an Aston or Alfa but it definitely is unique.

Jimmy the Heater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #49
potatoho
Cheese and Rice!
 
potatoho's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Sea-level
Oddometer: 4,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy the Heater View Post
I'm sorry I'm picking out just one sentence in your post, but nondescript? Really? That would imply that it looks like many other cars on the road. The only thing that looks even close to this is a Tata Nano and that will never come to the US. It is certainly not as beautiful as an Aston or Alfa but it definitely is unique.
It struck me as boiler-plate. The one I saw was solid red colored. Like this.. which I dunno, is basically a non-descript lump with wheels

Edited.. actually in person, it did resemble a Fiat 500. Oh but the funny thing, at least I found it funny. I asked the owner about the range, and he said confidently 90 miles. But when I look at the US EPA rating (62) and in general what a 16 kWh pack would provide, I think he was being optimistic. It was funny to me because I often parrot that my car gets 32 mpg because that's what the realtime computer often displays -- but the cold reality is that across the entire tank it is consistently 25 mpg. I wonder if the anecdotal EV range claims are as reliable as my 32 mpg figure.


potatoho screwed with this post 06-11-2013 at 07:59 PM
potatoho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 09:17 PM   #50
fxstbiluigi
crash test dummy
 
fxstbiluigi's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: The Dry side of Oregon
Oddometer: 11,834
Electric cars are all fine and good.......... until you consider what it takes to generate the electricity required to recharge them and the emissions those power plants put into the atmosphere now that nuclear power has been damned.

Not to mention the lost revenue from gas taxes to support the interstate hi-way system and bridges and such.
__________________
The basic question of politics is "Who does what to Whom?". -Vlademir Lenin.

"Politicians are always interested in people.
Not that this is always a virtue.
Fleas are interested in dogs." -P.J.O'Rourke
fxstbiluigi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 11:06 PM   #51
troidus
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Oddometer: 12,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxstbiluigi View Post
Electric cars are all fine and good.......... until you consider what it takes to generate the electricity required to recharge them and the emissions those power plants put into the atmosphere now that nuclear power has been damned.

Not to mention the lost revenue from gas taxes to support the interstate hi-way system and bridges and such.
I invite you to look at the base load solar plant in the Andalusia region of Spain, and the gas tax has never been sufficient to pay for highway maintenance, which needs more than it should because we under-spec our roadways in the first place. Also, it's far easier to sequester pollutants from a fixed generating plant than it is from millions of mobile emitters.
troidus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 02:48 AM   #52
RedSquareJapan
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Tokyo
Oddometer: 105
It's great living in Japan:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/27/tokyo_taxis/
RedSquareJapan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 07:55 AM   #53
I_FLY_LOW
Beastly Adventurer
 
I_FLY_LOW's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Oddometer: 2,592
I saw my first one, down here in da' bayou state...
Nice looking ride, too!
I_FLY_LOW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 08:02 AM   #54
Anorak
Woolf Barnato
 
Anorak's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: OAK
Oddometer: 32,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSquareJapan View Post
What's the date on the article. A Better Place went under last month.
__________________
'Gonna get me a six pack...push people off the highway!'

"they live off the carrion of our mutual distrust and bribe us with symbols that equate hatred with manhood."

"I mean at the end of the day, I was addicted to Starting Fluid for Christ's sake!"

"Yeah, that guy sure is terrible at touching moms"
Anorak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 06:19 AM   #55
Anorak
Woolf Barnato
 
Anorak's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: OAK
Oddometer: 32,857
And, here it is.
Quote:
Tesla Motors on Thursday will demonstrate a quick way to swap out the batteries on its all-electric Model S sedan as an alternative to recharging on long road trips, CEO Elon Musk revealed Tuesday.
__________________
'Gonna get me a six pack...push people off the highway!'

"they live off the carrion of our mutual distrust and bribe us with symbols that equate hatred with manhood."

"I mean at the end of the day, I was addicted to Starting Fluid for Christ's sake!"

"Yeah, that guy sure is terrible at touching moms"
Anorak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 06:57 AM   #56
Lesharoturbo
Nerdly Adventurer
 
Lesharoturbo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Austin TX
Oddometer: 1,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by ig_88e View Post

As to the discussions about PV arrays to charge, you could have an array that charged a bank of ultracapacitors, and then go from that to the car. Unless the station is charging cars non-stop, you can reduce the size of your array pretty easily.
No way to reduce array size as you need the kWh (power over time) to get the battery charged (capacity is expressed in kWh). To use ultracaps to reduce charging time, the array size would have to increase.

1kw array generates ~ 3.5 - 6kWh per day during the the summer depending on location, less during the winter. To increase kWh, you need to increase the size of the array. If you need to charge a 50kWh battery in one hour, you need to supply 50kW of electricity for one hour or need an array about 10kW minimum. However, this would be PEAK power, only generate for 1 - 2 hours per day. To charge multiple cars during available sunlight (10am to 6pm generally) would mean the array would have to generate 50kW even during the lower sunlight times. This means a huge array.
__________________
Individuality is best expressed individually; you are conforming in your non-conformity.
Lesharoturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 06:57 AM   #57
docwells7
Beastly Adventurer
 
docwells7's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: GO GATORS!!!
Oddometer: 6,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by troidus View Post
I invite you to look at the base load solar plant in the Andalusia region of Spain, and the gas tax has never been sufficient to pay for highway maintenance, which needs more than it should because we under-spec our roadways in the first place. Also, it's far easier to sequester pollutants from a fixed generating plant than it is from millions of mobile emitters.
Besides, those power plants are going to be pumping out that CO2 whether or not it's being utilized. We have a ton of excess capacity during the off hours...might as well use some of that idle energy for a top off of the e-car...
__________________
Quote:
'1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual.' - Unknown
IBA#25276
Airhead#9654
docwells7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 08:04 PM   #58
prince_ruben
Beastly Adventurer
 
prince_ruben's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Oddometer: 1,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by svs View Post


LR3 is driven by a chick (pulled in), a ball bagger whipping the tesla (takes pride on the exit).
prince_ruben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2013, 08:41 AM   #59
ig_88e
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: VT
Oddometer: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesharoturbo View Post
No way to reduce array size as you need the kWh (power over time) to get the battery charged (capacity is expressed in kWh). To use ultracaps to reduce charging time, the array size would have to increase.

1kw array generates ~ 3.5 - 6kWh per day during the the summer depending on location, less during the winter. To increase kWh, you need to increase the size of the array. If you need to charge a 50kWh battery in one hour, you need to supply 50kW of electricity for one hour or need an array about 10kW minimum. However, this would be PEAK power, only generate for 1 - 2 hours per day. To charge multiple cars during available sunlight (10am to 6pm generally) would mean the array would have to generate 50kW even during the lower sunlight times. This means a huge array.


80kWh battery capacity charged in 20 minutes at 480VAC input (without losses) would require 500Amps, not really a big deal. To run one charger from solar (no storage) would require a 300kWAC array @STC or about 400kWAC to get real use out of (morning and evening). Even with 20% efficient panels, the array would cover @14,000sqft for the panel area and about 20,000sqft for a real installation with access ways, cable ways and room for the inverter and switchgear, about 2/5 of an acre for he solar alone.


I was just trying to say that you don't need to build a 400 kW array if you want to charge 50 kWh in 15 minutes. You can have a 50, or smaller, if you have some efficient storage. (you said, "no storage", I'm just saying storage would be cheaper than the extra 350kw of panels)

Of course, the math is all different if you are charging multiple cars. Or cloudy days, etc.

Also don't get why you need 500A @ 480VAC? 80kwh in 20 mins required 240 kw of power (assuming no losses). 480 implies 3 phase, so 80 kw/phase. At 277V (L-N for 480) that's only 290A phase.

But maybe I'm missing something. All I got is an EE degree and a PV powered house.
ig_88e is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2013, 10:46 AM   #60
Lesharoturbo
Nerdly Adventurer
 
Lesharoturbo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Austin TX
Oddometer: 1,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by ig_88e View Post
I was just trying to say that you don't need to build a 400 kW array if you want to charge 50 kWh in 15 minutes. You can have a 50, or smaller, if you have some efficient storage. (you said, "no storage", I'm just saying storage would be cheaper than the extra 350kw of panels)

Of course, the math is all different if you are charging multiple cars. Or cloudy days, etc.

Also don't get why you need 500A @ 480VAC? 80kwh in 20 mins required 240 kw of power (assuming no losses). 480 implies 3 phase, so 80 kw/phase. At 277V (L-N for 480) that's only 290A phase.

But maybe I'm missing something. All I got is an EE degree and a PV powered house.
You are right, I was just dividing 480VAC into 240kW to get 500A. Technically it is 3-phase and your math is correct. I am not an EE but I am in the solar industry.

You could get away with a smaller array and storage, however, you would reduce the amount of cars you could charge. A 50kW array would mean that you may be able to charge one 50kWh battery per hour. However, reality does not depend on math (as you noted in my current "calculations" above). I was not saying you were wrong in your assessment, just that practicality dictates a much larger array for real use.
__________________
Individuality is best expressed individually; you are conforming in your non-conformity.
Lesharoturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014