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Old 06-07-2013, 01:43 PM   #31
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
JM? Great. I call that "my front porch."

I didn't think you had a particular position. I never heard back from you on the amount of delay you find acceptable. Rest-assured, that is based on the experiences of people who have actually gone through it -- not theory.
I don't know, a few minutes I guess.

I've been delayed for roadside DUI stops a few times, as well as the Border Patrol stops and a "safety check" stop on the PA Turnpike a few years ago. Never more than 5 minutes.

Jim
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Yep, because the only two choices are (a) be a complete abject bootlicker, or (b) live off the grid in a compound. Just because you have chosen (a) doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with that must be in camp (b).

PhilB
You are the one going to extremes here. I would say there is plenty of middle ground, but to invoke the Holocaust for this pretty much lays out your extreme position.

Jim
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:48 PM   #33
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And those checkpoints are equally wrong, equally a violation of our rights, equally un-Constitutional. The police are not supposed to stop ANYONE unless they have a definable "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause" to stop *that* specific individual.

That's what the 4th Amendment is all about. When the police may stop people without cause, just to check, you have moved a large distance away from liberty and toward a police state.

PhilB
Funny, I can't find that in the 4th amendment. It is about "unreasonable search and seizure" It doesn't say anything about asking for validation of your compliance with the law. The Supreme Court has yet to find the Border Patrol checks unconstitutional, despite many cases attempting to say they are.

Don't like it? No problem, petition your congressman to change the law. It is the American way, and well within our rights to do so. Don't care enough to bother, stop whining about it!

Jim
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
No disrespect but this argument is like burying your head in the sand. How many times have we heard from officials....if your not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about its an intrusion and in my opinion goes against the 4th amendment...
Basically the Right to be left alone....
Your on a public road,you have no expatiation of privacy in public. Its not like they are knocking on your door demanding to inspect your motorcycle in your garage, without a warrant. Do I think it's fucked.....kinda but my bike is legal so if anything it would be a bit of an inconvenience. Kinda like going through a license, or dui checkpoint minor inconvenience.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Funny, I can't find that in the 4th amendment. It is about "unreasonable search and seizure" It doesn't say anything about asking for validation of your compliance with the law. The Supreme Court has yet to find the Border Patrol checks unconstitutional, despite many cases attempting to say they are.

Don't like it? No problem, petition your congressman to change the law. It is the American way, and well within our rights to do so. Don't care enough to bother, stop whining about it!

Jim
Is illiteracy really that rampant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
The Supreme Court as an enforcer of Constitutionality is a complete joke. Worse than a coin flip; they get it wrong more than half the time and routinely uphold laws that are blatantly un-Constitutional. I have entirely lost respect for the SCOTUS.

I do petition my congresspeople to change or repeal laws. I do this frequently. I also support state nullification, jury nullification, civil disobedience, and other strategies that are ALSO "the American way, and well within our rights to do". AND (an important part as well) I work to spread the ideas of liberty and freedom and individual rights, and publicly oppose violations of those, among people, since that has to be the foundation of successful efforts to preserve or regain any or all of those.

PhilB
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ghostryder View Post
Your on a public road,you have no expatiation of privacy in public. Its not like they are knocking on your door demanding to inspect your motorcycle in your garage, without a warrant. Do I think it's fucked.....kinda but my bike is legal so if anything it would be a bit of an inconvenience. Kinda like going through a license, or dui checkpoint minor inconvenience.
True, you have no expectation of privacy with regard to anything anyone can see or hear you doing in a public place. That does NOT mean you have no right or expectation to be allowed to go about your own business without being stopped, harassed, inspected, detained, or demanded that you prove you're not guilty of anything.

They have no right to stop you unless you are actually doing something they can see or hear that gives them reasonable suspicion of a crime, or unless they have a warrant on you based on other evidence.

PhilB
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:49 PM   #37
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No one complains when the Border Patrol stops every car at the 25 mile checkpoint looking for illegals, been done forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
No one complains when the Border Patrol stops every car at the 25 mile checkpoint looking for illegals...
I would have, if I had ever encountered this.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #39
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They have no right to stop you unless you are actually doing something they can see or hear that gives them reasonable suspicion of a crime, or unless they have a warrant on you based on other evidence.
That's a probable cause/reasonable suspicion stop. NOT the rationale for checkpoints.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:01 PM   #40
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....I do petition my congresspeople to change or repeal laws.
And they (or really their staffers) say, oh yeah, that nutter again....
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:03 PM   #41
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Land of the free, huh?!
And home of the brave!
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
That's a probable cause/reasonable suspicion stop. NOT the rationale for checkpoints.
There is no valid rationale for checkpoints. You can't justify violating a person's individual rights by saying "It's OK, we're violating *everyone's* rights equally". The 4th Amendment STILL says "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects", and requires warrants or good reason for any searches of any individual or his home, papers, or effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
And they (or really their staffers) say, oh yeah, that nutter again....
They may well; indeed I'm sure some of them do. Which is why the rest of that paragraph was there, noting that
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... I also support state nullification, jury nullification, civil disobedience, and other strategies that are ALSO "the American way, and well within our rights to do". AND (an important part as well) I work to spread the ideas of liberty and freedom and individual rights, and publicly oppose violations of those, among people, since that has to be the foundation of successful efforts to preserve or regain any or all of those. ...
PhilB
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:35 PM   #43
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Is illiteracy really that rampant?



The Supreme Court as an enforcer of Constitutionality is a complete joke. Worse than a coin flip; they get it wrong more than half the time and routinely uphold laws that are blatantly un-Constitutional. I have entirely lost respect for the SCOTUS.

I do petition my congresspeople to change or repeal laws. I do this frequently. I also support state nullification, jury nullification, civil disobedience, and other strategies that are ALSO "the American way, and well within our rights to do". AND (an important part as well) I work to spread the ideas of liberty and freedom and individual rights, and publicly oppose violations of those, among people, since that has to be the foundation of successful efforts to preserve or regain any or all of those.

PhilB
Apparently the word "search" means something different to you than it does to me.

Asking for my licensee and registration to verify they are up to date is hardly a "search" to me. They are not asking me to open my saddle bags. I do not see the seizure part at all, unless you mean seizing an illegally modified motorcycle, which neither is anything near the intent of the parts of the Bill of Rights you are referring to.

But hey, if it makes you feel better jump on the right to protest it. Change the law, and stop whining about it on the internet where you have about as much chance of changing my opinion as I do yours!

Jim

PS I am hardly illiterate, and resent your implication that my differing opinion somehow makes me so.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:38 PM   #44
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So anyway, I'm more concerned over the massive communication interception and data mining being conducted by the federal government. And that their response is, it's okay, we've been doing it for a long time, it's only bothering you because you found out about it.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:40 PM   #45
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
All he had do was say he was an American would have ended that in about 2 seconds. What did he gain by that? What did he lose?

People sometimes just love to push back against "the man"! There is zero harm in answering that simple question, yet people want to make a case of it. Oh well, if it means that much to him, he won, sort of.

Jim
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