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Old 01-01-2014, 01:02 AM   #151
GrahamD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post

I just found this pic, not mine, but maybe it is, dunno? Definitely not the wheels and tyres, but I did sell it in over 20 years ago.
A real beast, I think gold "hot wires" were the wheel for distinguished gentlemen with taste back then though..

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Old 01-01-2014, 11:48 AM   #152
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Interesting. Typically is it not recommended to apply rear brake first and then immediately front, which helps to limit the front end dive (bike settles on both ends instead if pitching forward) .

If you apply front first the rear effectiveness decreases because a lot of weight is transferred forward.

But of course, I'm no instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
You may be right about the front end push, probably its just that I'm still adapting to a 260 kg dirt bike I do notice it less now.

I'm just about at the point that I'm turning the ABS off at the sight of dirt. And I just can't see the point of linked brakes, for me.

One thing I have learnt over the years is to routinely do emergency stops from the various speeds and surfaces that I travel on. As a part time riding instructor for 22 years, its something I preach, and I practise it too, not all do

Not that I routinely NEED to do an emergency stop, but on the off chance I do, when you have one chance to get it right, good practiced skills can enable that so that you survive to tell the story.

Emergency braking for many is flawed because of a few things that routinely go wrong.
  • Not using finger tips, the very tips, not the pads or back of knuckles, which often happens with a grab,
  • Grabbing the front brake instead of a progressive application, with an incrementally increasing pressure,
  • Failure to separate the front and rear brake application, to get the front working first to transfer weight there before getting the rear operating,
  • Jumping on the rear brake like its a car brake pedal with ABS with late and limited front application,
  • If the stop isn't going well, increase rear brake pressure instead of front,
  • Failure to recognise the first symptom of a front wheel lockup, the sudden sensation that speed is increasing, which is actually the rate of deceleration decreasing because the skidding wheel isn't gripping as well as a turning one, at least on a sealed surface. Then the reaction is to squeeze harder on the front brake when traction is already exceeded,
  • etc
Practice the right technique when its not critical, then it'll work for you when it is.

For normal braking on dirt, the ABS and linkage is fine, for more aggressive use its flawed for me

YMMV


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Old 01-01-2014, 02:10 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdv View Post
Interesting. Typically is it not recommended to apply rear brake first and then immediately front, which helps to limit the front end dive (bike settles on both ends instead if pitching forward) .

If you apply front first the rear effectiveness decreases because a lot of weight is transferred forward.

.......
Above I was referring to emergency stops. Which should be a 'normal' braking technique, just not as assertive. But, if your normal technique is the same as that required for an emergency stop, its got more chance of being successful.

To get the shortest possible stopping distance depends on getting the front brake working first and using the weight transfer to the front to flatten out the tyre contact patch. This has to happen progressively. We had a video some time back that was put together by the Tasmanian Police using one of their then R100s. They ignored the rear brake for the purpose of the test. What they wanted to do was quantify the benefit of a progressive application of the front brake vs just pulling it on in a sudden grab. They fitted a pressure gauge to the front hydraulics and tested. OTTOMH, a sudden front brake application resulted in the tyre skidding with <> 2000 psi line pressure. With a progressive application that allowed the forks to compress progressively, building line pressure, developing weight transfer and increasing the size of the tyre contact patch, lockup occured at <> 3600 psi. And the stopping distance was almost proportionally shorter. Hard to put a figure on the time it takes to brake progressively, but its 0.1-0.2 seconds or so depending on the bike. Not something that comes naturally, it needs to be practiced. Normally people pull the brake on, but don't keep the pressure building. Works for a normal stop, but not so effective in a short stop.

No doubt applying the rear brake first in certain situations has benefits with respect to settling the bike, it helps tighten a corner line once in a corner, and, on my 650 Berg especially, is a great tool for controlling corner exits balanced against the throttle on single track. When I used to spend lots of time on the bitumen track, I'd use up a set of rear pads in a weekend at Phillip Island on my ZX9R from dragging the rear brake around its long LH corners to help keep the bike turning and settled with power on, but not accelerating so much. Front pads last heaps longer.

To get the shortest stopping distance from ANY bike, the system is the same:
  • Roll off throttle as you reach out and remove the freeplay from the front brake. Use finger tips for maximum feel/feedback, and maximum articulation of the fingers with the knuckles. This means that you can use the throttle overlapping with the brake if necessary, like blipping the throttle on a downchange, or keeping the front end loaded into a corner after the brake comes off which is a more advanced technique.
  • Once the freeplay is removed from the lever, squeeze, and keep squeezing, increasing progressively the pressure applied so that you progressively generate fork dive and tyre patch flattening. The bigger patch is what gives more grip and delays the lockup.
  • Now if its an emergency, get the clutch in and hold it in, if not, it'll come in anyway because you are going to downchange.
  • So after a perceptible delay, with the front brake now working, its time to apply the rear brake, get rid of the freeplay and similiarly build pressure. Get on the rear too soon and it'll lock as the weight comes off it transferring to the front. The front brake will do up to 100% of the stopping, so its the one to focus on.
  • Now we need to get into first gear before we complete the stop, so click down as many times as you can to be sure its there, just before putting your left foot out to prevent toppling over as you complete the stop. Your right foot is still on the brake.
If necessary, depending on what's going on behind, you can move off to the side or wherever to avoid being the meat in a traffic sandwich. If you're not in first gear.........

The above system can be summarised as doing the RH stuff, LH stuff, RF stuff and lastly the LF stuff.
Right, Left, Right, Left. Get it happening and you may be amazed how good your brakes are.

If its not an emergency stop, then the clutch will be released between downchanges, but engine braking is no good for stopping. Its good for controlling speed. If you have time to release the clutch when downchanging, its not an emergency stop.

That help?
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:15 PM   #154
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PS

For normal road riding use 4 finger tips on the front brake. It should be your reflexive instinct because it will work no matter what bike you are on, a modern sports bike, or an old drum braked dunger. Then adapt to the situation, and use fewer fingers as appropriate to the situation, but 4 fingers when you don't think about it. Eventually fewer finger situations will become instinctive too, but 4 fingers works every time on every bike, fewer fingers, not always.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:20 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
.........................




The top nut on the triple clamp was not even finger tight...............................

....................
A short test ride up to the gate and back then over some tree roots and rocks and the noise is gone.

Interesting that I could detect no free play in the steering head, but it was obviously the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
Or if either/or of the cups for the head bearings weren't fully seated from new, then the tension would come off the castellated nuts, as they properlly seated, followed by the TC nut. One way or another, its not right. 7,500 kms, and been demanding attention for the last 500 kms.

Supporting this theory is the fact I've had the forks in and out a few times and not noticed any movement of the TC relatively to the steering stem at the time(s).

...................
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluric View Post
Couple times I've had to tighten mine too.
Went riding on the DR today and met up with another S10 owner. He has almost 10,000 kms up and I was interested to check his bike out. He was particularly interested when I handed him his top triple clamp nut. He thought that it might explain the clatter from the front end which was starting to worry him. Not even finger tight, just sitting there like mine was.

Check them out.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:12 PM   #156
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Thanks for the write up.


I still prefer two fingers because really, I ride other bikes may be once every couple of years, no sense to compromise throttle control on my bike which I ride 99.999% of the time for the off chance I may ride a bike which may need four fingers (that would really need to be an old bike, too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
PS

For normal road riding use 4 finger tips on the front brake. It should be your reflexive instinct because it will work no matter what bike you are on, a modern sports bike, or an old drum braked dunger. Then adapt to the situation, and use fewer fingers as appropriate to the situation, but 4 fingers when you don't think about it. Eventually fewer finger situations will become instinctive too, but 4 fingers works every time on every bike, fewer fingers, not always.


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Old 01-06-2014, 09:42 PM   #157
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power up

hey Bergdonk, have you done any of the power up mods? I have looked at off the road's web site and they talk about unleashing the ECU for an addtional 20% power.. then they talk about Dyno jet kits and/or Power Commanders ect..

So far I have done the Clutch mod switch and that is it. I have the Yamaha aftermarket can.. and will do the ABS off switch mod nexts.. I am investigating options..

your thoughts?
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:05 PM   #158
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Engine still all stock. I do have a Staintune in Sydney awaiting collection. Its more about being able to hear the engine than any anticipated performance gains, but who knows? I'm finding at times I'm in too tall a gear, and hoping this might address this issue. Still pulls through, but not with the authority of a lower gear.

I'd be amazed if a reflash can release another 20% hp. But some more top end would be nice, it does go flat over 5-6 k, but then it keeps pulling after an upchange too. It really is very forgiving to ride as is.

The surging is 99.999% fixed after accidentally fixing it when I pulled the headers as described above. I suspect that nearly 8000 kms now have helped smooth it out too.

T mode is good for slower technical stuff, and S mode most elsewhere now for me. I would like not to have to stop to adjust the TC, be nice to be able to toggle that on the fly on the bars.

I have done the CJM mod, but I don't like it, so I just ignore that. The ABS switch is used all the time now on dirt. The suspension is pretty much dialled in now and works great. Still an opportunity speed up the hs compression in the forks I reckon, but no rush, they are about 85-90% now, and I have high standards for suspension, so way better than stock as is.

Arguably best of all for me now is that SWMBO absolutely loves the ride up back. We did 350 kms to Adminaby for lunch and back on Sunday almost all on local dirt back roads. Its a great pillion bike, and the Scorpion Rallys really suit the bike too.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:32 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
Above I was referring to emergency stops. Which should be a 'normal' braking technique, just not as assertive. But, if your normal technique is the same as that required for an emergency stop, its got more chance of being successful.

To get the shortest possible stopping distance depends on getting the front brake working first and using the weight transfer to the front to flatten out the tyre contact patch. This has to happen progressively. We had a video some time back that was put together by the Tasmanian Police using one of their then R100s. They ignored the rear brake for the purpose of the test. What they wanted to do was quantify the benefit of a progressive application of the front brake vs just pulling it on in a sudden grab. They fitted a pressure gauge to the front hydraulics and tested. OTTOMH, a sudden front brake application resulted in the tyre skidding with <> 2000 psi line pressure. With a progressive application that allowed the forks to compress progressively, building line pressure, developing weight transfer and increasing the size of the tyre contact patch, lockup occured at <> 3600 psi. And the stopping distance was almost proportionally shorter. Hard to put a figure on the time it takes to brake progressively, but its 0.1-0.2 seconds or so depending on the bike. Not something that comes naturally, it needs to be practiced. Normally people pull the brake on, but don't keep the pressure building. Works for a normal stop, but not so effective in a short stop.

No doubt applying the rear brake first in certain situations has benefits with respect to settling the bike, it helps tighten a corner line once in a corner, and, on my 650 Berg especially, is a great tool for controlling corner exits balanced against the throttle on single track. When I used to spend lots of time on the bitumen track, I'd use up a set of rear pads in a weekend at Phillip Island on my ZX9R from dragging the rear brake around its long LH corners to help keep the bike turning and settled with power on, but not accelerating so much. Front pads last heaps longer.

To get the shortest stopping distance from ANY bike, the system is the same:
  • Roll off throttle as you reach out and remove the freeplay from the front brake. Use finger tips for maximum feel/feedback, and maximum articulation of the fingers with the knuckles. This means that you can use the throttle overlapping with the brake if necessary, like blipping the throttle on a downchange, or keeping the front end loaded into a corner after the brake comes off which is a more advanced technique.
  • Once the freeplay is removed from the lever, squeeze, and keep squeezing, increasing progressively the pressure applied so that you progressively generate fork dive and tyre patch flattening. The bigger patch is what gives more grip and delays the lockup.
  • Now if its an emergency, get the clutch in and hold it in, if not, it'll come in anyway because you are going to downchange.
  • So after a perceptible delay, with the front brake now working, its time to apply the rear brake, get rid of the freeplay and similiarly build pressure. Get on the rear too soon and it'll lock as the weight comes off it transferring to the front. The front brake will do up to 100% of the stopping, so its the one to focus on.
  • Now we need to get into first gear before we complete the stop, so click down as many times as you can to be sure its there, just before putting your left foot out to prevent toppling over as you complete the stop. Your right foot is still on the brake.
If necessary, depending on what's going on behind, you can move off to the side or wherever to avoid being the meat in a traffic sandwich. If you're not in first gear.........

The above system can be summarised as doing the RH stuff, LH stuff, RF stuff and lastly the LF stuff.
Right, Left, Right, Left. Get it happening and you may be amazed how good your brakes are.

If its not an emergency stop, then the clutch will be released between downchanges, but engine braking is no good for stopping. Its good for controlling speed. If you have time to release the clutch when downchanging, its not an emergency stop.

That help?
Thanks for this post

Since reading it a few thousand kms ago, I've put it very much into practice and it's making my braking and my going much better.
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:46 PM   #160
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Posture for Braking

So now everyone is out trying to better use their brakes

Posture needs to be considered too, its fundamental. I reckon 99.9% of the feedback I have given over the years has included, and predominantly focused on, posture.

Keep your head up. Heard that before? Where you look is where you go, so look down and.......

We have evolved to travel at walking pace, checking where we put our feet, so head up looking 100s of metres ahead isn't natural.

As the deceleration increases, your head especially wants to move forward, and it does so by pivoting down from the neck. You need to resist this and keep the head up. It means your balance mechanism is operating normally, and no tilt messages are being sent to the brain. Also, because you can still see what is happening out there, maybe the need to complete the stop has dissipated. Our peripheral vision is engineered for sideways and down, but not up. Head down also facilitates target fixation which we need to avoid.

So keeping the head up, resisting the forward thrust is good, but not by doing it through the arms. It needs to be through the lower body, gripping the bike between the thighs. As soon as you stiffen your arms you lock the bars and are now unable to steer the bike, and feedback from the hand controls about stability, tyre surface interaction etc is compromised. You need to maintain a relaxed grip on the bars.

Bent elbows all the time to enable steering, and wrists no higher than the plane that includes your elbow down to the front brake lever. Too high a wrist and you'll open the throttle as you reach out for the brake lever.
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Old 01-08-2014, 01:34 AM   #161
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Did I miss something? Can you explain what you mean by pulled the headers??

Joe

The surging is 99.999% fixed after accidentally fixing it when I pulled the headers as described above. I suspect that nearly 8000 kms now have helped smooth it out too.
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Old 01-08-2014, 01:12 PM   #162
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Did I miss something? Can you explain what you mean by pulled the headers??

Joe

The surging is 99.999% fixed after accidentally fixing it when I pulled the headers as described above. I suspect that nearly 8000 kms now have helped smooth it out too.
Pulled as in removed

Guess you missed it. A bit buried in a few posts here I suppose. When I pulled the headers to remove the rear suspension link for lubing, the head/pipe gaskets literally fell out with evidence of leaking. There was no crush on them at all. After proper reassembly, almost no surging and its got a bit better over time/kms such that its now negligible. Presumably the leaks compromised the O2 sensor input and the ECU wrongly compensates accordingly.

Still waiting for someone else that has surging to pull their header and see what happens. I did post this outcome on the big thread here on ADV and also a couple of times over on the S10 forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
While I had the shock in and out I'd taken the opportunity to lube up the link bearings. As usual, not much in there from the factory. I like to pack them solid with grease so that if anything does get past a seal, it still has a grease barrier to deal with before it gets to wearing bits.

The problem was that to get the link out of the frame, the exhaust headers need to come off because the cat is in the way of getting the bolt out. So this week it was off with the bash plate and headers, which is straightforward, once you track the sensor cables back to their connectors and unplug them.

The bolt could, with some minor frame mods, be fitted from the RHS, so I might do that another day.

Interestingly, there was evidence of both manifold gaskets having minor leaks. I reinstalled after liberally 'copper coating' them and seems good now.

....................................
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And I should also mention that after this weekend's ride the surging seems less. Especially this afternoon when we, ie me and SWMBO pillioning, did 40 kms of gravel with some clay patches after a storm had wet it down.

I really think the part throttle control is better, and the only thing I can come up with is the now properly sealed manifold gaskets.

Normally a leaking manifold gasket can sound like a tappet, but I hadn't noticed any excessive noise, in fact they really are too quiet stock. But its marginally quieter now, and surges less, if at all.

It'd be interesting if someone else pulled their header and had a good look at the gaskets and then gooed them up on reassembly.
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:10 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MymoJoe View Post
hey Bergdonk, have you done any of the power up mods? I have looked at off the road's web site and they talk about unleashing the ECU for an addtional 20% power.. then they talk about Dyno jet kits and/or Power Commanders ect..
The additional power is made in 1-3 gears by removing Yamaha's restrictions.

Power in the mid range and top end, reportedly about 6 hp, can be gained by swapping out the stock headers for the Arrow headers, and 2-3 more by changing out the muffler. A muffler change alone doesn't require a PCV or some other FI tuner but you would need it if you changed the headers.
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:19 PM   #164
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I guess there may be a set of Arrow headers and a PCV in the future, but I'm also building up another DR650 and resources are not unlimited unfortunately.
Priorities

Gotta collect the Staintune now and see if that makes any difference other than note.

The reflash is interesting, but I'd like to test it first.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:53 AM   #165
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The reflash is the single best mod I've done. It feels like a completely different motor, going from good to great.

Actually I just had it dynoed today, only mods are the Gen II flash and Akra slipon.



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