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Old 07-02-2013, 08:13 AM   #16
DirtyDR
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I can do left or right figure eights with either the Ural or GS rig with the chair in the air without any problems. Actually at the national in Ohio I was having problems with the left hand figure eights on the GS until I realized that I was dragging the left Jesse bag in the grass so when I removed the Jesse I could lean it far enough to do the left hand figure eights.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:42 AM   #17
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDR View Post
I can do left or right figure eights with either the Ural or GS rig with the chair in the air without any problems. Actually at the national in Ohio I was having problems with the left hand figure eights on the GS until I realized that I was dragging the left Jesse bag in the grass so when I removed the Jesse I could lean it far enough to do the left hand figure eights.
Then try stopping and starting off again..that usually freaks some out..lol.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #18
DirtyDR
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Piece of cake. With the Ural I stop it and park it resting on the crash bar and then go back and start it up and leave without ever dropping the car.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:23 AM   #19
WU7X
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This is an incredibly informative thread! Thanks to all for their comments. I usually drive my '81 airhead hack with 80 lbs of extra weight in the chair. I have 15" EML wheels and car tires on the tug and a 10" trailer tire on the chair. My old Koni's could probably use a rebuild, and the chair has a torsion bar style suspension. The systems seems to hold the corners really well.

But say, if I'm caught in a tightening left-hander, with an empty chair, I don't think I want to give it too much front brake, do I? Wouldn't that lift the rear wheel on the tug?

I'm still learning having a little over a year on hacks.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:27 AM   #20
DirtyDR
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I don't think the weight will make much difference in a left turn unless you have it too far forward but you want to watch the front brake in left turns. Assuming of course the hack is on the right side.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:01 PM   #21
claude
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Yes, braking in a left turn with tele forks or anything other then a setup leading link with front brake especially will cause the sidecar nose to dip. Weight transfer will increase and unload the rear wheel. Wheel lead will come into play in helping this situation but too much will have it's own downsides too. It is beat to brake prior to the turn in left or right handers when possible. Much can be learned by practicing with your own outfit.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:18 PM   #22
Tarka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WU7X View Post
with 80 lbs of extra weight in the chair.
Get that weight out and learn to ride it as it`s meant to be...unballasted.
You`re only kidding yourself and creating a false sense of security by ballasting.
Come the day that you`ve no ballast,you`re back to square one and any handling traits and methods you`ve learned won`t be valid.

The ballast thing`s been done to a thousand deaths on here anyway,so I don`t want it raging again, but folk with ballast really do need to get it gone and learn their combo properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WU7X View Post
. But say, if I'm caught in a tightening left-hander, with an empty chair, I don't think I want to give it too much front brake, do I? Wouldn't that lift the rear wheel on the tug?
Avoid the front brake at all costs unless it`s a dire emergency and you`re using front and back fully.
Solo bike braking methods such as favouring the front don`t apply to combos and even on a solo you don`t want to be using the front brake midcorner if you can avoid it.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:46 PM   #23
Wolfgang55
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So it sounds like the BMW R1200GS should be a good bet for a sidecar mount.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:28 PM   #24
davebig
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I need to practice Claude's circles drill, I've had a couple bad trips to the ditch in fast left to right turn transitions. I've developed the habit of trailing throttle in right turns, usually close throttle(speed scrubs off fast when you start turn) enter turn when you feel suspension adjust start accelerating monitoring feel.More speed requires using rt knee against tank to stabilize position, bar backs raise bar and move bar reward making things easier.
But I need to get used to chair coming up more.DB
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:00 PM   #25
dholaday
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When the chair flies we are now on a 2-wheeler, right? Doesn't that mean that we need to revert to counter-steering? If we keep turning bars to the right we will go left, at least until the chair returns to earth.

Claude is absolutely correct about need for practice.

I've watched DirtyDR play around on 2 wheels with his chair in the air. Pretty impressive riding skills.

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Old 07-03-2013, 06:02 AM   #26
claude
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[QUOTE=dholaday;21778112]When the chair flies we are now on a 2-wheeler, right? Doesn't that mean that we need to revert to counter-steering? If we keep turning bars to the right we will go left, at least until the chair returns to earth.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! You are not on a two wheeler just because the sidecar wheel lifts. Once to a certain point you would ride it like a totally unbalanced two wheeled but this doesn't happen as soon as the wheel leaves the ground

D Holiday wrote:
Claude is absolutely correct about need for practice.


Practice will prove what I said above. Just go in a circle until the sidecar comes up and then turn left. The sidecar will come back down and you will go in the direction you are turning, THIS is what can send you across the centerline at speed in a right hander. I only wish that there would be a distinction made between cornering with the sidecar wheel in the air and 'flying the sidecar'! There has been no small amount of confusion generated by this. If we could say that flying the chair was riding with the chair in the air at a balance point that would be fine. If we could separate this from simply going through a turn on two wheels much of this unneeded confusion would vanish. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

[I]D Holiday wrote:I've watched DirtyDR play around on 2 wheels with his chair in the air. Pretty impressive riding skills.

Just takes some practice but 'playing on two wheels' is not what we are speaking of here.
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claude screwed with this post 07-03-2013 at 06:11 AM
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:41 AM   #27
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davebig View Post
I need to practice Claude's circles drill, I've had a couple bad trips to the ditch in fast left to right turn transitions. I've developed the habit of trailing throttle in right turns, usually close throttle(speed scrubs off fast when you start turn) enter turn when you feel suspension adjust start accelerating monitoring feel.More speed requires using rt knee against tank to stabilize position, bar backs raise bar and move bar reward making things easier.
But I need to get used to chair coming up more.DB
Fast left to right transitions in the twisties can sneak up on us..lol. The right to lefts are much better because because the sidecar will come back down when you setup for the leftie.
Folks we are talking semi aggressive riding here. The key is to learn good techniques and then practice. Trying for speed too soon in the ones learning curve can get you in trouble whether it is on a sidecar outfit, solo bike or skateboard. Once techniques are learned then practice needs to b ean ongoing thing. If one practices in a safe area and does so a little above their comfort zone the skill level bar will be raised. In time most will notice that their cornering speeds will have risen automatically.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:56 AM   #28
DirtyDR
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Claude is absolutely correct about the difference between playing on 2 wheels and having the chair come up unexpectadly at 70 mph on I70 going through Glenwood Canyon. You need to practice so you know the point at which it will come up and what to do when it does.

It is especially interesting on a high suspension bike because you can not always tell when the chair wheel is off the ground as the suspension compresses. Mine was even more fun since the rear shock on the bike gave up the ghost going through Pennsylvania on my way to the rally so it had a whole lot of travel with little actual suspension.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:02 AM   #29
claude
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Quite a few years ago , Lee Palmer, from New England got a sidecar outfit. He had been bitten by the sidecar bug for quite awhile prior to that so was reading all he could find to learn about sidecars and their operation. The outfit he got was a pretty nice rig and well balanced. It was a K bike with a Lowell Neff leading link and a California sidecar on it. Well done.
Anyhow he ran it around a little and got kinda used to it. Finally one day he got into a right hander near home a little too hot (for his then present skill level) and felt the sidecar come up. From what he had read he thought the thing to do was to turn left to go right. (countersteer like a solo bike) So...he did that. Well the outfit didn't go right like he had read it went left. There was oncoming traffic. Thank God he went behind one oncoming car and in front of the one behind it. No contact...Yep..off the Left side of the road (no guardrails are good sometimes)...and flipped it over. No real injuries to himself and really not much wrong with the outfit.
So, why did this happen? He had absorbed the printed word prior to getting a sidecar. He had practiced a little and felt he was safe. BUT....he did not practice as he should have. All one can rely on ius what is in their brain. If all we stuff in there is word knowledge we will lack when it comes down to reality. Lee almost quit sidecaring after that and it took him a while to ' get back on the horse'. But he did and became a very good sidecar jockey. In fact he later said that the same turn he crashed on at around 45 to 50 mph he now takes at over 65 with no issues and safely. Why? PRACTICE. PRACTICE PRACTICE.
All of us here can up our skill levels with practice. I think all of us here could admit that when being open about it. Sidecars talk to you as you run them. Same as any vehicle whether it be a sidecar a solo bike or a wingless sprint car blasting around a dirt track. We are all still learning the language our choice of steed is talking. Dang..remember the first time you tried to ride a bicycle? lol.
Seat of the pants real life and real time skills come from sitting in the drivers seat after learning all we can from others.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:57 PM   #30
claude
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Geez..didn't mean to end the thread..lol.
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