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Old 08-17-2013, 01:23 PM   #61
Paulvt1
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Originally Posted by RaY YreKa View Post
The problem with that motor is that it was built when fuel was cheaper; being from the old Firestorm, I hear 33mpg imperial is normal.

And the only guys I see on varaderos are big; really big.
I had one of the carbed ones and it liked a drink.

Something light based around that 700cc twin would be a good bike, frugal and a good seller.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Paulvt1 View Post
Something light based around that 700cc twin would be a good bike, frugal and a good seller.
Africa Twin is a v-twin from day one. Can't see a parallel twin filling those shoes, and the current NC700 engine is about 10hp down on the final AT version (2003, if I remember correctly, was the last one).
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:43 PM   #63
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Africa Twin is a v-twin from day one. Can't see a parallel twin filling those shoes, and the current NC700 engine is about 10hp down on the final AT version (2003, if I remember correctly, was the last one).
But it has a great torque curve for dirt. Torque is available all over the rev range. It's compression ratio will suit any old fuel.
And it's range with a 25L tank would be HUGE. Some good points right there. The new 750 version all things being equal will gain another 5HP. and since it will probably be a bit lighter anyway, it's pretty much a wash. The COG would probably also be lower.

But if it has to be a V-Twin then so be it, but the NC motor looks like it would be fine where it counts.

On the other hand if your are after a high strung, high octane race bike then that is different, but that is not what I thought the AT was.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
But it has a great torque curve for dirt. Torque is available all over the rev range. It's compression ratio will suit any old fuel.
And it's range with a 25L tank would be HUGE. Some good points right there. The new 750 version all things being equal will gain another 5HP. and since it will probably be a bit lighter anyway, it's pretty much a wash. The COG would probably also be lower.

But if it has to be a V-Twin then so be it, but the NC motor looks like it would be fine where it counts.

On the other hand if your are after a high strung, high octane race bike then that is different, but that is not what I thought the AT was.
Good point. I'd forgotten the news/rumour that the 2014 NC range will be 750cc.

I wouldn't see any point in a 1000cc AT. Honda already have the Cross Tourer for that niche.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:33 PM   #65
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I hope the USA has a shot at this one!
seriously?
but if it does get here, I want 65mpg on the highway 45mpg on the dirt. (might as well dream!)
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:20 PM   #66
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The current (actually now discontinued) Africa Twin is a true XR series bike under the fairing with an unbelievably fantastic off-road handling. The only thing that parts this bike from being a full blood competition bike is the bit lower suspension travel, that in turn makes it excel on tarmac.

I doubt we will ever see another Honda like that. Of course I wish, I wish I wish...

...but with the current trend of simply re-branding heavy pig, pure blood road touring monsters and selling them under Paris-Dakar Theme (incl. the obligatory commercials featuring stunt riders in some heroic shoots), I don't see how Honda could resist selling out the Africa Twin name and not follow the very same trend.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by A-Wind View Post
The current (actually now discontinued) Africa Twin is a true XR series bike under the fairing with an unbelievably fantastic off-road handling. The only thing that parts this bike from being a full blood competition bike is the bit lower suspension travel, that in turn makes it excel on tarmac.

I doubt we will ever see another Honda like that. Of course I wish, I wish I wish...

...but with the current trend of simply re-branding heavy pig, pure blood road touring monsters and selling them under Paris-Dakar Theme (incl. the obligatory commercials featuring stunt riders in some heroic shoots), I don't see how Honda could resist selling out the Africa Twin name and not follow the very same trend.
They are a private for profit company, Capitalism works that way. So the way to get the most average punters into this is get a basic platform that has the engineering paid for and modify that. That can either come from something that has similar weight power etc and do some good suspension work or leverage off a really expensive racing involvement where the engineering has been done and tweaked and just build a ton more de-tuned and regulation compliant versions and hope they sell. Any sale is an offset on the race development cost OR just build a new look onto the old AT and pay Ewen and Charlie lots of money to ride the new look AT with comments about finally being on real bikes etc.

So is the current bike selling well?

They may just tweak that if it is so popular.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
They are a private for profit company, Capitalism works that way. So the way to get the most average punters into this is get a basic platform that has the engineering paid for and modify that. That can either come from something that has similar weight power etc and do some good suspension work or leverage off a really expensive racing involvement where the engineering has been done and tweaked and just build a ton more de-tuned and regulation compliant versions and hope they sell. Any sale is an offset on the race development cost OR just build a new look onto the old AT and pay Ewen and Charlie lots of money to ride the new look AT with comments about finally being on real bikes etc.

So is the current bike selling well?

They may just tweak that if it is so popular.
Sounds to me like you are making arguments for a one size fits all POS bike.

Following that logic, why even bother with building different categories. Just build one bike and call it "Africa CBR VFR Twin EcoMax".

What fans of the Africa Twin are looking for is a true successor to THE legend, ACTUAL WORTHY HARDWARE and not some some POS that is spiced up via re-branding and advertising images.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by A-Wind View Post
Sounds to me like you are making arguments for a one size fits all POS bike.

Following that logic, why even bother with building different categories. Just build one bike and call it "Africa CBR VFR Twin EcoMax".

What fans of the Africa Twin are looking for is a true successor to THE legend, ACTUAL WORTHY HARDWARE and not some some POS that is spiced up via re-branding and advertising images.
Your not following my logic. You are talking like there is NO market for different styles out there.

No I am saying that the money invested in the design, manufacturing, capital costs, training, regulatory compliance, insurance, spare parts inventory, shipping and warranty provisioning has to be greater over a reasonable business cycle than that same money sitting in Bonds, otherwise you will have no Honda unless it is sold to Nth Korea where it doesn't matter as long as Kim Jong-un likes Honda.

How much to design make and deliver that bike.1 million? So what do you say when you walk into the store for your new bike and give you a bill for 1.75million plus tax and rego?
Something like WTF and then you would go and buy a KTM. right.

Now lets say they make another 10 at a cost of USD 5000 each. so now that bike would cost $185,000. So what do you say about that?
Something like WTF and then you would go and buy a KTM. right.

5,000 PA over 5 years? you are starting to talk business. Just. So maybe they think they can sell 25000 units over 5 years. And that will give them a price that will start to make sense to people.

25000 units PA? Now you have some excited Honda folk. Some smoking deals are going to be had at that rate.

BTW Honda now sell export about 100,000 Total bikes PA 250cc and over.

So any bike that seems to be viable at those levels will be made as the business case stacks up. You can always try and convince Honda that it does but it's them taking the risk.

I have never seen the term Legendry on a P&L statement of balance sheet. Maybe it's different where you live.
All dry and boring but that's the way Headquarters are.
I look forward to seeing what the new Africa CBR VFR Twin EcoMax is like. Should be all anyone needs.

The upside at the moment is that Honda seem to be taking the scatter gun approach and throwing new models against the wall to see what sticks.
Maybe one night too many Sake's will be consumed and they will vomit up an expensive low volume AT.

So far it has been the fuel efficient small and practical ones sticking.

OH dear. It's a plot

So the executive summary is this. If something has already been developed the amortization cost oi low. Most of that cost will be going into the motor. The lowest risk approach is to take somethinbg already developed and work around it. That way you have less volume before you break even.

For niche markets, that may mean an improved emission compliant AT, or an existing reg compliant motor that can be used in a big proper traile.

See KTM1190 for an example, Honda CTX, NC, CB500, XLV etc. No body seems to care about platform sharing these days as long as the end result works.
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GrahamD screwed with this post 08-18-2013 at 12:04 AM
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:46 AM   #70
Paulvt1
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I can't see Honda making a bike for one or two hardcore riders. It just wouldn't sell. They need a rival to the Tiger 800 and the BMW F800. Priced well and spec'd well it'll be a more relevant proposition than the XTourer.

There's also the rumour of a range of bikes coming out based around the old 800 V4 motor..
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:50 AM   #71
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I guess I'm not following you...

On this thread we are NOT talking about the another universal POS bike. There is plenty of other threads for that.

This thread is about a SUCCESSOR to a legendary bike that once indeed EXISTED (and built for many years). A bike that is truly worthy of it's name and designation !!!


A hint for those, who seem to be worried more about accounting than riding: it was a huge success and it made money.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #72
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The AT and the XTZ750 were ahead of their time. At least as far as what's selling now. Of the 2 companies i can see Yamaha launching a credible successor first.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:44 AM   #73
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its in dutch, not german. no offence taken
The translation was posted by two plugs here:
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=45
Most important: "The introduction of the Honda oriented off-road bike would already planned for this fall (2013)"
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:28 PM   #74
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New Africa Twin wl come... based on the XL1000V powerplant (MCN, 14.8.2013)

To feed the hunger... ;)

Leading motorcycle magazine Motor Cycle News states that the bike will come, will be revealed at the Milano motorcycle exhibition later this year and that it will be based on the bullet proof XL1000V engine (strongly modified)

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:35 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by A-Wind View Post
I guess I'm not following you...

On this thread we are NOT talking about the another universal POS bike. There is plenty of other threads for that.

This thread is about a SUCCESSOR to a legendary bike that once indeed EXISTED (and built for many years). A bike that is truly worthy of it's name and designation !!!


A hint for those, who seem to be worried more about accounting than riding: it was a huge success and it made money.
Yeah I get the hint..

I did say'....
Quote:
Maybe one night too many Sake's will be consumed and they will vomit up an expensive low volume AT.
After a few ADV bike sales flops maybe they have been drinking a bit more who knows. Geez.

The other thing I suppose is that nothing seems to get a Japanese firms blood boiling harder than a rival Japanese firm getting the jump.

So the XT850 Tenere rumors may have caused a bit of a stir at Honda They probably decided it's time to whip YAMAHA's ass and that can only be good for the Big Four to be trying to outdo each other.

Which means Kawasaki will have their zx6-r based 4 cyl ADV bike out real soon
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