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Old 07-26-2013, 05:56 PM   #61
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
No, you only said there should be a limit so everyone goes the same speed. But even if that was a good thing, this explanation would not be an excuse for the way too low limits. Your explanation would work with a random limit, or better with a posted minimum speed everyone has to drive at least.
Really? Please quote me where I said that!

You are making up stuff now, from what you think/want what I said.

I said, there are reasons for the speed limits, and they include the LCD for drivers and vehicles. I never said they should go the same speed, or that they should go slow. If you ever rode with me you would no better than that!

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Old 07-26-2013, 10:47 PM   #62
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Oh boy, stop being so childish.

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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
The "logic" is the limits are about the average vehicle and human reaction time, not the extremes of the spectrum.

No matter how good the driver/rider and their vehicle is, the greater the disparity of speed between vehicles, the greater the risk. It makes sense to have limits that the majority of traffic can handle safely.

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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
I said, there are reasons for the speed limits, and they include the LCD for drivers and vehicles. I never said they should go the same speed, or that they should go slow. If you ever rode with me you would no better than that!
There of course are explanations for some of the speed limits. But again, these often weak explanations are no excuse for generally way too low speed limits.
Of course you said everyone should go the same speed - or at least that law should demand so. The irrationally low speed of a bad driver in an old car under bad weather conditions (LCD). That's lunatic.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:59 PM   #63
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What's so special about that? I'm doing speeds of 120...150mph every morning and every afternoon to and from work. With cars in front of, behind and besides me. Nothing unsafe to find there.
It's no big deal, I do the same on the way into S.F. on the upper deck of the Bay Bridge. I hit 150 mph on the way to work on the Oakland span on a Saturday morning a few years ago.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
There of course are explanations for some of the speed limits. But again, these often weak explanations are no excuse for generally way too low speed limits.
Of course you said everyone should go the same speed - or at least that law should demand so. The irrationally low speed of a bad driver in an old car under bad weather conditions (LCD). That's lunatic.
Don't be so obtuse,

Heres a very concise, easy to understand explanation of how speed limits are established in the United States from the Arizona DOT.




FOREWARD Realistic speed limits are a traffic engineering tool used to derive the best traffic service for a given set of roadway conditions. This summary tells what realistic speed limits will do, what they won't do, and how they are established.

WHY SPEED LIMITS?

Since most citizens can be relied upon to behave in a reasonable manner as they go about their daily activities, many of our laws reflect observations of the way reasonable people behave under most circumstances. Traffic regulations are invariably based upon observations of the behavior of groups of travelers under various conditions.
Generally speaking, traffic laws that reflect the behavior of the majority of vehicle operators are found to be successful, while laws that arbitrarily restrict the majority of drivers encourage wholesale violations, lack public support, and usually fail to bring about desirable changes in driving behavior. This is especially true of speed zoning.
Speed zoning is based upon several fundamental concepts deeply rooted in our American system of government and law.
  1. Driving behavior is an extension of social attitude, and the majority of drivers respond in a safe and reasonable manner as demonstrated by their consistently favorable driving records.
  2. The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal.
  3. Laws are established for the protection of the public and the regulation of unreasonable behavior on the part of individuals.
  4. Laws cannot be effectively enforced without the consent and voluntary compliance of the public majority.
Public acceptance of these concepts is normally instinctive. However, the same public, when emotionally aroused in a specific instance, will often reject these fundamentals and rely instead on more comfortable and widely held misconceptions, such as:
  1. Speed limit signs will slow the speed of traffic.
  2. Speed limit signs will decrease the accident rate and increase safety.
  3. Raising a posted speed limit will cause an increase in the speed of traffic.
  4. Any posted speed limit must be safer than an unposted speed limit, regardless of the traffic and roadway conditions prevailing.
"Before and After" studies consistently demonstrate that there are no significant changes in traffic speeds following the posting of new or revised speed limits. Furthermore, no published research findings have established any direct relationship between posted speed limits and accident frequency, although short-term reductions have resulted from saturation enforcement efforts directed at speed and other traffic law violations.
Police agencies necessarily rely on reasonable and well recognized speed laws to control the unreasonable violator whose behavior is clearly out of line with the normal flow of traffic.
Contrary to popular belief, speed in itself is not a major cause of accidents. In fact, there is a consensus of professional opinions that many speed-related accidents result from both excessively low and high speeds.
It is accepted within the traffic engineering profession that there is a demonstrated need to produce as much uniformity as possible in the traffic flow and to eliminate the so-called speed trap. A speed trap may be defined as a street or road which is wide enough, straight and smooth enough, and sufficiently free of visibility limiting obstructions to permit driving a certain speed, but where the law nevertheless calls for a much lower speed.


WHAT REALISTIC SPEED LIMITS DO

Realistic speed limits are of public importance for a variety of reasons:
  1. They invite public compliance by conforming to the behavior of the majority.
  2. They give a clear reminder of reasonable and prudent speeds to non-conforming violators.
  3. They offer an effective enforcement tool to the police.
  4. They tend to minimize the public antagonism toward police enforcement which results from obviously unreasonable regulations.

WHAT UNREALISTIC SPEED LIMITS DO

Unrealistic speed limits are also of public importance for the following reasons:
  1. They do not invite voluntary compliance, since they do not reflect the behavior of the majority.
  2. They make the behavior of the majority unlawful.
  3. They maximize public antagonism toward the police, since the police are enforcing a "speed trap."
  4. They create a bad image for a community in the eyes of tourists.

HOW REALISTIC SPEED LIMITS ARE ESTABLISHED

Arizona Revised Statutes, Section 28-702 allows the establishment of speed limits on the State Highway System "upon the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation."
Speed zoning in Arizona is based on the widely accepted principle of setting speed limits as near as practicable to the speed at or below which 85 percent of the drivers are traveling.This speed is subject, of course, to downward revision based upon such factors as: accident experience, roadway geometrics, and adjacent development. Some questions which need to be answered prior to establishing a speed limit are:
  1. Is the section of roadway sufficiently long enough to permit safe accelerating and decelerating for the 85th percentile speed?
  2. Is the alignment, both vertical and horizontal, capable of safely accommodating vehicles traveling at the 85th percentile speed?
  3. Are the lane widths, traffic volumes, and surface conditions compatible with this speed?
  4. Will a vehicle traveling at the 85th percentile speed be capable of making a safe and smooth stop, if necessary?
  5. Has a pattern of accidents developed which would indicate that the 85th percentile speed is not appropriate?
  6. Is a certain speed limit necessary to provide signal progression?
  7. Is development adjacent to the roadway causing a significant amount of turning maneuvers or congestion?

ENGINEERING JUDGMENT

Probably one of the most important factors in a speed study, but the one most difficult to define, is engineering judgment based on the experience of the traffic engineer. No matter how complete policies and guidelines are, there will always be speed studies with peculiarities requiring engineering judgment.
Sometimes, the decision to raise or lower a speed limit in a certain area may have to be based on the traffic investigator's own personal judgment. In some remote areas, where there is insufficient traffic for a valid speed sample, the traffic investigator may have to base his decision on a driving impression of the speed study area.
In the final analysis, it is the engineering judgment of the investigator that determines which, if any, of the factors in the speed study warrant a downward adjustment to the 85th percentile speeds.
After all variables are considered and a speed limit is established, traffic should flow at an optimum safe and efficient level.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....
Just because some squids and Rickey racers desire to go significantly faster does not make the vast majority of speed limits "excessively low", that's childish ignorance.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:44 PM   #65
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There is an optimum safe speed for every vehicle/driver/road/traffic/weather combination. No person or system, including the drivvers themselves (even the good ones) can be expected to know exactly what that is.

So... a traffic engineer or planner, or whomever, does some calculations and selects a speed based on a set of standard criteria (such as those outlined in the previous posting). Depending on local custom he/she then rounds that off to the nearest odd or even increment of 5mph. Then the local law enforcement or politicians or other interested parties exert their non-engineering influence for that to be higher or lower until, eventually a number is arrived at. This number may be substantially lower (but almost never higher) than most drivers think is optimal.

When the road is in use, most drivers are going to try to stay at or near the speed limit as a minimum, and will push higher if they think they can. Depending on personal bravado, risk tolerance, urgency, etc., some will push the limit by zero, others will effectively ignore it. What happens after that, depends upon the attitude, policy and various other influences on law enforcement, including the personal opinions of individual officers. To say that just "safety" or just "revenue generation" is the over-riding factor is clearly nonsense and arguing about it does nothing but show who is the most stubborn, arrogant, misinformed or bored amongst us.

The only consistent theme I see in the various postings on this thread is that most of us seem to think the speed limits should apply to everyone except us. I know I do!
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Old 07-27-2013, 05:44 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Yeah, and in MD I have gotten two camera speed trap awards in a month, last month. You should also recognize that VA has much higher traffic volume than MD. Speeds in either state are what they are. I find myself doing 80 in VA as often as in MD, though no more since the unmarked speed cameras in MD are popping up everywhere. Talk about revenue generators with no value but to pull in funds for the state!

Jim

PS That link is about as unbiased as the AMA on helmets. Post one with scientific backing.
So let me get this straight. You're an advocate of the 55mph speed limit, and you frequently do 80mph.

I have a confession to make as well. I'm an advocate of the federal Gov't getting rid of most tax deductions. All the them except mine!
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:46 AM   #67
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I think there was a message lost in all of this. The message that there is always a knee jerk reaction that speeding, even a little bit, is akin to rape or murder or atleast seems to be the case.


Lots of accidents? Set up a radar trap....dont worry about the guy tailgatinig....or the guy cutting people off....or the guy wobbling all over the road because he is drunk and/or texting.....nope...just get the guy doing 55 in 45 on a rural road with nothing on it.

Speed doesnt kill, it merely contributes to the carnage which are CAUSED by triggers such as these:

Inattention/Distraction: Daydreaming, TEXTING(I dont think TALKING on a phone is as big of an issue as texting) Reading, eating, makeup, you can dream of it..its been done!

Incompetence: Failure to yield properly, failure to check mirrors/ do head checks when changing lanes, failure to read traffic as a whole and instead drivinb while looking no farther than the car in front of you allowing for pileups and wild avoidance manuevers after someone signals well in advance they are turning into the bak or something, inability to judge proper corner speeds, lack of vehicle control skills for any given conditions.

ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC

Speed just dictates the depth of the smoking hole.... not the reason its there in the first place.
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:09 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by espacef1fan View Post
I think there was a message lost in all of this. The message that there is always a knee jerk reaction that speeding, even a little bit, is akin to rape or murder or atleast seems to be the case.


Lots of accidents? Set up a radar trap....dont worry about the guy tailgatinig....or the guy cutting people off....or the guy wobbling all over the road because he is drunk and/or texting.....nope...just get the guy doing 55 in 45 on a rural road with nothing on it.

Speed doesnt kill, it merely contributes to the carnage which are CAUSED by triggers such as these:

Inattention/Distraction: Daydreaming, TEXTING(I dont think TALKING on a phone is as big of an issue as texting) Reading, eating, makeup, you can dream of it..its been done!

Incompetence: Failure to yield properly, failure to check mirrors/ do head checks when changing lanes, failure to read traffic as a whole and instead drivinb while looking no farther than the car in front of you allowing for pileups and wild avoidance manuevers after someone signals well in advance they are turning into the bak or something, inability to judge proper corner speeds, lack of vehicle control skills for any given conditions.

ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC

Speed just dictates the depth of the smoking hole.... not the reason its there in the first place.
Its often repeated that statistically, unlicensed riders/drivers are not as safe as those who are licensed. Having a license doesn't make you safer, it simply shows that those who ride/drive without a license tend to be irresponsible people with bad judgment.
The rider/driver who often speeds significantly in inappropriate locations is typically the same irresponsible person who makes other poor judgment calls, and has little respect for others. Speed enforcement isn't really about the speed, its just a convenient and reliable indicator of a pattern of bad riding/driving.

Our traffic rules and laws may be too conservative, but enforcement is lax and predictable, fines and penlites modest, and it takes quite a bit to loose your license.
Speed in its self isn't inherently dangerous, but speeding with poor judgment is, and if you stick out enough from the crowd to get dinged, you're obviously doing it wrong.

IMO, riders/drivers who constantly whine about speed limits and enforcement either have unrealistic expectations, or simply don't posses the judgment and roadcraft to take reasonable liberties with the law, and don't realize it, or are unwilling to admit it.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:02 AM   #69
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"Before and After" studies consistently demonstrate that there are no significant changes in traffic speeds following the posting of new or revised speed limits. Furthermore, no published research findings have established any direct relationship between posted speed limits and accident frequency
See? Nearly everyone's going over the posted speed limits. If the psl are changed, nearly everyone still goes as fast as before. And since psl SHOULD be based on what most people do - at least in your argumentation, it's not what I myself would call good decision making - most psl are obviously unreasonable low.

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Speed enforcement isn't really about the speed, its just a convenient and reliable indicator of a pattern of bad riding/driving.
Fix'd.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
See? Nearly everyone's going over the posted speed limits. If the psl are changed, nearly everyone still goes as fast as before. And since psl SHOULD be based on what most people do - at least in your argumentation, it's not what I myself would call good decision making - most psl are obviously unreasonable low.
So whats the difference between conservative and unreasonable?
Most folks drive +/- 5 mph in most locations.
Keep in mind we allow bigger, heavier trucks, there is very little in the way of standards or enforcment of vehicle condition other than commercial vehicles, and driver training is minimal.

The driving culture here is more universal and casual than Europe. Skilled riders/drivers operating well maintained, performance vehicles are the exception, not the rule.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:17 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Oh boy, stop being so childish.






There of course are explanations for some of the speed limits. But again, these often weak explanations are no excuse for generally way too low speed limits.
Of course you said everyone should go the same speed - or at least that law should demand so. The irrationally low speed of a bad driver in an old car under bad weather conditions (LCD). That's lunatic.
Really? Please quote where I said that or about it.

Everything you are saying is about how you feel, no actual science to back it up!

Jim
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:21 PM   #72
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So let me get this straight. You're an advocate of the 55mph speed limit, and you frequently do 80mph.

I have a confession to make as well. I'm an advocate of the federal Gov't getting rid of most tax deductions. All the them except mine!
Please show me where I said I am an advocate of any particular speed limit? I know, you can't!

I am attempting to explain why, in scientific terms, a speed limit is established. I never once said I advocate any particular speed, nor have I said I actually go the published speed limits. I only said there is a reason they exist!

Stop reading things into what I write and actually read what I write!

Jim
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:40 PM   #73
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You quoted me on something I said to windmill, and I attributed what he said to you.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:59 PM   #74
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You quoted me on something I said to windmill, and I attributed what he said to you.


Jim
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Old 07-27-2013, 03:46 PM   #75
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You quoted me on something I said to windmill, and I attributed what he said to you.
I'm not advocating any particular speed limit standard, or saying all vehicles must go the same speed either.

My point is that sometimes the criteria that detirmened a particular speed limit isn't always ready apparent upon casual observation, and limits that could create a large disparity of speeds between different types of vehicles are avoided when possible.
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