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Old 07-24-2013, 11:08 PM   #31
rjap
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You know the old saying ... There are lies, there are bloody lies, and then there are statistics.

I am not a statistician, but I find the data on the IIHS website misleading or pointless as it is not reduced to a rational comparative basis.

The actual insurance companies (which have a profit motive) offer discounts for those who take safety training on a regular basis.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:15 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
except for the fact that such federal requirements would be contrary to the 10th amendment

there is no reason though, why individual states can't mandate tiered licensing
Nice try, but that will not hold. The Fed has plenty of examples of overriding the 10th ammendment for public safety.

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:34 AM   #33
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maybe so, you should encourage YOUR state to try such a thing, it's just not something that will happen on the federal level in the US
I think you forgot to quote the important part of what I was saying. The only way tiered licensing will work is if the majority of people covered by that law accept and choose to follow it. Otherwise it just encourages more people to break it.

I was just explaining some unintended consequences of enacting laws such as this. I'm betting the outcome wouldn't be improved safety at all, but rather it would be fewer licensed riders/exponentially more people riding illegally.

If tiered licensing applies to bikes, it should apply to cars, pickups, suvs, and recreational trailers as well. The problem is though, the public will never go for that. As I said, people don't want to earn priviledges anymore, they want to be given them for free (ie no forcing harder training requirements on them).
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:42 AM   #34
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I think you forgot to quote the important part of what I was saying. The only way tiered licensing will work is if the majority of people covered by that law accept and choose to follow it. Otherwise it just encourages more people to break it.

I was just explaining some unintended consequences of enacting laws such as this. I'm betting the outcome wouldn't be improved safety at all, but rather it would be fewer licensed riders/exponentially more people riding illegally.

If tiered licensing applies to bikes, it should apply to cars, pickups, suvs, and recreational trailers as well. The problem is though, the public will never go for that. As I said, people don't want to earn priviledges anymore, they want to be given them for free (ie no forcing harder training requirements on them).
All true!

Problem is, we need to do something to address the more than 2 million unlicensed MC riders. Not just for their sake, but out own as well.

http://tntrafficsafety.org/sites/def...etlicensed.pdf

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:43 AM   #35
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Tiered licensing seems to work just fine for teenagers learning to drive. I don't hear about a bunch of them driving without a license, breaking the law. Not sure why anyone would think it would be different for a new motorcyclist?

Perhaps people are too cynical... or still buy into the whole "outlaw biker"
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:47 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
All true!

Problem is, we need to do something to address the more than 2 million unlicensed MC riders. Not just for their sake, but out own as well.

http://tntrafficsafety.org/sites/def...etlicensed.pdf

Jim
The only way to increase compliance with the law is to increase the penalty for violating the law. That isn't even a guarantee, but simply making it harder to get a license without increasing the penalty significantly is simply going to result in more unlicensed riders. I mean if they're not bothering to get licensed when it is easier, they're certainly not going to bother with harder requirements.

I hope they don't try the stupid checkpoint thing. That would be a very annoying method of trying to combat it.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
All true!

Problem is, we need to do something to address the more than 2 million unlicensed MC riders. Not just for their sake, but out own as well.

http://tntrafficsafety.org/sites/def...etlicensed.pdf

Jim
Oops, didn't see that document... now you have gone and made me think...
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:52 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_sandman_454 View Post
......
If tiered licensing applies to bikes, it should apply to cars, pickups, suvs, and recreational trailers as well. The problem is though, the public will never go for that. As I said, people don't want to earn priviledges anymore, they want to be given them for free (ie no forcing harder training requirements on them).
Oh we should absolutely have tiered licensing for cars. Start out in a Fiat or smart car, and gradually move up to a 17' SUV. Imagine how much easier parking at a mall would be if the Suburban/Expedition soccer moms actually got their monstrosities between the lines.

As for people not obeying the law and driving unlicensed? Take their license away for a year, impound their rides and charge them rent on their space in the impound lot until they have their license back. Easy money for the state, more money in the local community for mechanics fixing cars that have been sitting for a year, and less drivers on the road. Implement $1000+ fines for people loaning their cars to someone without a license. It will take a while, but people will eventually learn to get licensed legally.

I'm pretty far in the do not legislate camp, but when you have morans driving 3 tons of steel around not paying attention, being generally stupid, it's a public safety issue. What people do on their own property is not my business, but when they leak on to roadways that I drive with my 6 year old then it is very much my business, and the business of the entire community.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:56 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dazeedmonds View Post
Oh we should absolutely have tiered licensing for cars. Start out in a Fiat or smart car, and gradually move up to a 17' SUV. Imagine how much easier parking at a mall would be if the Suburban/Expedition soccer moms actually got their monstrosities between the lines.

As for people not obeying the law and driving unlicensed? Take their license away for a year, impound their rides and charge them rent on their space in the impound lot until they have their license back. Easy money for the state, more money in the local community for mechanics fixing cars that have been sitting for a year, and less drivers on the road. Implement $1000+ fines for people loaning their cars to someone without a license. It will take a while, but people will eventually learn to get licensed legally.

I'm pretty far in the do not legislate camp, but when you have morans driving 3 tons of steel around not paying attention, being generally stupid, it's a public safety issue. What people do on their own property is not my business, but when they leak on to roadways that I drive with my 6 year old then it is very much my business, and the business of the entire community.
Good luck finding politicians who would go along with that though. I doubt you can find someone willing to commit political suicide over this issue. The majority of the population will be in favor of it until those people figure out the rule impacts them.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_sandman_454 View Post
The only way to increase compliance with the law is to increase the penalty for violating the law. That isn't even a guarantee, but simply making it harder to get a license without increasing the penalty significantly is simply going to result in more unlicensed riders. I mean if they're not bothering to get licensed when it is easier, they're certainly not going to bother with harder requirements.

I hope they don't try the stupid checkpoint thing. That would be a very annoying method of trying to combat it.

I think you just have the local LEO agencies take the MSF/RidersEdge/whatever is offered courses. Then when they are out patrolling they can just stop people that obviously haven't taken the courses as evidenced by their riding. (duck walking for 300 yards, both feet on the ground for the last 100' coming up to a stop sign, half helmets and t-shirts etc..)

LEO: "I pulled you over because I suspect you are an idiot, and I want to make sure that you at least managed to trick the DMV tester into believing you could ride"



^this post was made with the intent to be humorous FWIW
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:32 AM   #41
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Good luck finding politicians who would go along with that though. I doubt you can find someone willing to commit political suicide over this issue. The majority of the population will be in favor of it until those people figure out the rule impacts them.
I suspect that it would be nearly impossible to find a politician willing to push that type of legislation.

The other option I see is for the industry to self regulate, and that means the dealerships would have to change their attitudes. When I first started shopping for a bike, nearly every dealership tried to push me towards a bigger bike. When I found some that were willing to sell me a 250 without being dicks ("it's a girls bike", "you're not going to like it etc"...) those were the dealers I dealt with. IF the dealers made more effort to truly ascertain their clients skills and abilities, yes they would likely lose some of the higher end sales. BUT by helping a client find the bike that actually FIT them, and that the client could handle safely they might find that over the course of a few years, their sales went up.

Imagine this scenario:
I (32 year old, married, father of one) walk in to the local dealership (of any flavor), I have minimal experience on a bike but I want a big touring bike (Goldwing/Road Glide etc). Dealership takes my $25,000/$35,000 I ride down the road and kill myself. Splat! Maybe my fault, maybe not, but probably avoidable, if I had known what I was doing, and known to hold the brakes/countersteer/etc ad nauseum and hadn't been driving 1000lbs of very heavy motorcycle. My wife's suspicions that motorcycles are deadly evil things is confirmed, my daughter grows up minus a daddy, and then raises her children to hate motorcycles.
No big deal right? The dealership got my money right?

Scenario two:
I walk in, minimal experience and the salesman notices that I'm not particularly familiar with bikes, I'm having trouble holding up the super tourer I really like, and am slightly confused about which lever is clutch and which is brake. The salesman sends me to the MSF course, and tells me that no one will sell me a bike until I learn. I take the course, come back and decide to buy a 250 (not much profit), my wife likes the looks of the 250 I buy, and since she took the course with me she gets a little experience riding mine, and about 6 months later she decides she wants one of her own (or I realize that I no longer have a motorcycle, but my wife does) and buys a used one (a little bit of profit) but she's a girl, and cares about the pretty things, and buys a full kit from the dealer (lots of profit in accessories). Another year or so and we both decide the 250's were good, but we want to ride on the freeway, so we both upgrade (more profit, and accessories), now our 7 year old is REALLY interested, and we buy her a pw50 (example only) and full gear so the baby don't get banged up. As she grows we continue to go to the same dealer and trade in her bikes until she's riding with us on the freeway.
As my daughter grows and has kids of her own she teaches them how to ride, and ride safely and continues to purchase for her children.


*addendum: these are two very possible scenarios, based on my own experience, my wife agreed to take the course (after 9 years of my wanting a bike) and has been riding mine every chance she gets, and has agreed to buying another one for me next year sometime *

Lets take the ethics out of the situation, obviously in the 1st example I am an idiot and it's my fault, but we're not concerned with that. Which way does the dealership make more money?

This only works if all the brands and dealers agree to some sort of self-regulation, which should be a priority......otherwise our politicians MAY decide its easier and safer to simply remove motorcycles from the equation. While that's not likely, it's not impossible.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #42
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+1 The MSF course is nowhere near as rigorous as it used to be...
...and you know that how? Despite the fuss that the last major revision stirred up, the basic content and "rigor" of the course hardly changed.

Quote:
...and the class that HD (used to? still does?) offer(s) is a joke (though I'm sure that the quality of instruction varies quite a bit)...
Yeah, the quality of instruction can vary but the underlying curriculum used by Harley is the same MSF curriculum

Quote:
Anyone know the status of the Team Oregon rider training course? I took it back in '93 and thought there was a great deal of emphasis on learning both control and observation skills.
Back in 93, Team Oregon was using the same curriculum as MSF nationally and something pretty similar to what is useed now.

So... Multiple fail and self-contradiction on the MSF-bashing front.

FWIW, I do agree that the overall level of motorcycle rider qualification and training in the US is a bit of a joke. That's mainly because people won't take advanced training if they're not forced to. The basic MSF course is aimed at those who would otherwise start out with little or no training at all. The level of training it provides is about the best you can hope to manage within the time and expense commitment new riders are willing to give.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:48 AM   #43
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I'm sorry to learn that the MSF program seems to be getting watered down.

On the surface the arguments that MSF courses did little to improve rider safety seem to have merit, but from the advanced course I took, and words from the numerous people who took the old basic course, I have little doubt that MSF did, indeed, keep newer riders safer by teaching them, and having them practice, certain skill sets even if they weren't skills practiced at road speeds and such.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #44
Andyvh1959
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Lots of good commentary here. Too bad it's mostly preaching to the choir. The 52 year old boomer first time rider, fair weather, 1000 mile per year (maybe) "I know what I'm doing" rider will never read a post on this site and most others like it.

They buy the social aspect of the biker "lifestyle", without considering the "buy in" to qualify them for it. Face it, a very large percentage of US riders, other than those who served in the military, have no tolerance for earning anything. My parents survived German occupation of Holland in WW2 before emigrating to the US with my sister and me, and $90 in hand. No handouts and you earn by your own effort, no ones else's.

So many riders are satisfied with limited abilities that meet their warm weather/social cruise 1000 mile per year take on riding. They likely see any training as for "track days" or "expert riders". Like, "why should I spend money on training, I do just fine as is."

Which is fine until the OH SHIT moment bears down on them.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post

So many riders are satisfied with limited abilities that meet their warm weather/social cruise 1000 mile per year take on riding. They likely see any training as for "track days" or "expert riders". Like, "why should I spend money on training, I do just fine as is."

Which is fine until the OH SHIT moment bears down on them.
When my brother-in-law (51) decided to ride/buy my old 'zuki we had a chat and I told him that if you're going to own a motorcycle.... ride it. Don't focus on cleaning it, posing with it or being seen on it.... just ride it. Taking a ride once in awhile isn't going to get the MSF skills to come automatically. He texts me now with a "mileage update" once in awhile. Over 1000K in 2 months is pretty good!
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