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Old 07-31-2013, 02:29 PM   #46
Joined: Aug 2012
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Sorry no link but lots of other data available

Originally Posted by Robert_W View Post
Is there a link or anything to document this claim? Did I miss something?
In my post I mentioned that I had read somewhere that as much as 70% of Colorado riders do not have a motorcycle endorsement, (sorry, no link). I then asked if that also meant they didn't have insurance. Pretty safe assumption that if they aren't endorsed they don't carry insurance.

Google uninsured motorcycle riders and unlicensed motorcycle riders. Lots of info out there. Some eye openers. One NTSA study said 47% of motorcycle deaths are unlicensed riders. Another article said 70% of motorcycle deaths are those without any professional riding training. Regardless of what study you read, it's obvious that untrained riders represent a disproportionate % of accidents and deaths.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:09 PM   #47
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Sad to read about these things. I feel bad for all involved.

Life is about choices. Sometimes good choices are made and sometimes not. Everyone learns from their choices whether they are bad or good. The material excitement from a new bike took away the young man's logical thought process which resulted in his death.

Nevertheless, I don't think the dealership has an obligation to keep the rider from taking a purchased bike without an endorsement---maybe a moral obligation, but nothing more.....

Im not one for there to be additional mandates or graduated licensing for motorcycle riding. If you want to take the risk without proper endorsements or learning how to operate it's on you, again a self-proclaimed decision. In 90% of rider crashes the only person that's going to get physically hurt or killed is the rider (emotionally there could be many).

The argument of proper endorsement/training for driving a large semi or flying a plane is much different because asset values and the potential collateral damage (hurting others) is much higher, so it's not apples to apples argument when applying to a motorcycle licensing.

I learned how to ride motorcycles by being a passenger on dirt bikes and street bikes as a young child. Even got to ride my buddies hodaca 50 in the baseball field (good times). As I got older, I learned and raced motocross and crashed lots (hurt too). It wasn't until I was 20 that I got my 1st street bike a FZR600. I didn't have a endorsement when I bought it, but I knew how to ride and understood there was a lot of responsibility between my legs and a lot of potential pain or death if I crashed so I took it easy and rode smart.

Everyone is trying to accomplish something big, not realizing that life is made up of the little things. ---Frank A Clark
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
At what point should a dealer of any item, whether it be a motorcycle, firearm, or chicken wing, be required to insist that the purchaser be trained to use the item?

In this instance, the dealer offered to deliver the motorcycle. Refused by purchaser.

I can go to my local big box home supply store and buy a chainsaw. Aren't chainsaws dangerous? I fail to see why motorcycle dealers get such "special" treatment in cases like this.
It makes good business sense, regardless of what is being sold to take care of a client as corpses seldom make good repeat customers.
If his guys bike had slid into you, or me coming the other way on our motorbikes, we could be seriously injured or killed. Add to this the fact he wouldn't be covered by insurance, I'd be pretty devastated. We have a social responsibility to look after one another. Not babysit, because if someone wants to chainsaw open their own leg, more power to them, as there would be no innocent bystanders traumatized/ injured.

woofer2609 screwed with this post 08-01-2013 at 03:26 PM
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:18 PM   #49
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I live in San Antonio, I took the "motorcycle safety course" at the age of 15(limited to 250cc limit until I turned 16), it was a joke. About half the people there never road a motorcycle before(one guy asked if they had any automatics, and thought that you accelerated with your right foot). It takes 3 days to get a permit here, day one of safety course on Saturday, day two on Sunday, go to DMV monday, take a written test(questions like, "Where is a rear brake located?"), no road test. And be on your way. But honestly, most wrecks here are older people(read: stubborn, finally have the cash for their Goldwing, still think modern bikes have drum brakes, ride with their feet off the pegs, etc). At least when a young guy takes a course he pays attention and doesn't have crappy habits.

But this guy didn't even have that, the dealership I go to, Kent Powersports(dealership the dead guy was at was alamocycle plex, Kent is much better and larger anyways, still no KTM bikes though), gives you 4 options if you want to take home a bike with out a license:
1)transport it in your truck/trailer
2)they deliver it to you
3)a friend takes it to your house
4)you take a safety course, get a license and come get it later
secret option 5)you don't get the bike, fuck off

Not the dealership's fault, he made his choice.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:45 PM   #50
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I live outside San Antonio, and this was on our news. The mom was there for the sale, and (for whatever reason) let him ride it out. She was behind him when he lost control of the bike. The dealership is on a very busy frontage road - it sometimes takes me quite a while to find a spot to scoot out into traffic. The frontage road is three lanes wide, and is busy all times of day/night.

I feel the mother, as she watched him lose control and then get run over, and I feel for the person in the 4-runner, who tried to miss him, but it was so fast she didn't have a change.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:03 PM   #51
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When I bought my first bike, a 1972 Suzuki GT750L, the infamous water buffalo, I had never driven a motorcycle. I assured the dealer I had ridden a bike while in the service in Japan.

I rode about six blocks in a light drizzle ( no, I was going to ride that fucker) dropped it in its right side when I gave it too much clutch. Lifted it back up and dropped it on the left. A nice guy helped me lift it up and put it on its side stand. I called the dealer and they sent a truck.

We laughed for years over that one. I even bought my BMW from them.
For the love of Baldy, would someone please buy my bikes?

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:52 PM   #52
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Location: Belton, Texas
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Sad situation. After buying quite a few bikes here in Texas and working for a dealer I think there will be more legal repercussions for this dealer. Here in texas the bike must have insurance (must send copy of DL showing mc endorsement to insurance company), mc must have proof for application of tags (temp tag) and in order for us to submit that we must submit DL number and info....and DL endorsements. To physically pick up the motorcycle rider must show valid DL with MC endorsement. Your buddy can not ride it off the lot. Trust me, I've seen some PO'ed customers try to slide by. They threaten to call the cops, we call them for them, and DPS always ask for....yes, the DL. They lose every time. Seen a bike sit in back for 2 months while the owner obtained his riders permit.

Ultimately it's individual a rider and a dealer. Very sad situation thou. As a parent I can't imagine that pain... Ride safe and mentor a rider.
Ride hard, you might be dead this time tomorrow!
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:34 PM   #53
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: Montana
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Some counties have a graduated system, I am all for it, actually I would like people to even learn on a bicycle first.

I took my first suspension clinic (some riding as well in relation to suspension how it handles ect) about 15 years after riding on the street, learned tons.

The next year I enrolled in an Advanced riding clinic, learned tons more.

You can never learn enough, never practice enough, and never be aware enough.

Let us hope we all have a safe rest of the year and arrive at our destinations with a brew served by a big breasted lady and a smile.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:43 PM   #54
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I will drink to that!
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:44 PM   #55
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How come nearly every state prohibits the sale of alcohol to intoxicated people but not the sale of a vehicle to someone with no license which means he couldn't have gotten insurance on the thing and enable them to break the law.
Keep your head up, keep your heart strong.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:33 AM   #56
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Changed scenario's

In another world it could have been my son so I am all for graded licencing and testing. As quite a few older members have indicated that is how we learnt, Start on a 50cc Puch moped on a farm road and scare yourself snotless. Then a Honda 90 with those funny forks, Suzuki 185, Honda 250, Husky 360, 390, 430 etc etc. Mostly on dirt.

But also I think traffic has changed. Cars are sofa's for texting with cruise control and there are more of them and a wider range of driving abilities and attention spans. Back in the day it was a man's job and by golly he had to pay attention with thin tyres, rod brakes, flip out turn signals (your arm), wandering steering and suspension etc. Ditto for motor cycles. They had to be coaxed up to speed and had drum brakes and most were prone to tank slapping (not the Huskies!). Although if my first bike had been the 360 (I had it on the road as well as offroad!!) I may not be writing this.

Reason for my diatribe - we still have pretty much the same licencing procedure as 30 years ago but the traffic scenario has changed significantly. Licencing should also.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:41 AM   #57
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You cannot fix STUPID

Originally Posted by Heyload View Post
I think it really points out the need for proper training.

I mean, I wouldn't think of flying an airplane or sailing a boat without proper training.

I don't get why people think operating a motorcycle or a car is any different.

I remember being in that very dealership once when some 19-20 something year old came in looking to buy a Hayabusa. The salesman asked him if he had any experience and the kid said no. The salesman flat refused to sell him the bike.

Of course, this was years ago, I guess now it's all about schlepping the gelt with these dealerships.

I wonder if I could start a mentoring program for people wanting to start riding? Just talk to them and try to get them to understand how important proper training is, what to expect, that sort of thing.
No matter what you do, You cannot help someone who refuses it, you cannot help stupid
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:25 AM   #58
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As a new rider in a busy area with crappy traffic, I insisted on getting my first (decidedly un-super) bike delivered, which the dealership did for free (they just asked me to tip the driver) even though it was about 30 miles into the heart of the perpetual traffic jam.

If you finance a bike, the dealer has a lot more leverage since the finance company will require insurance (and has a lien to make their wishes stick) and the insurance company will require the endorsement. If you don't finance a bike, the dealer still has the upper hand since if you do call the police to take your property, they will look at the license and not let you on the road. At that point, the dealer is just being nice to you for letting your store your stuff on their lot.

I've got to say, learning things like throttle control on a bike without enough power to cause me instant and unmanageable problems if I screw it up is pretty important. I am all for graduated licensing, and I don't think it's an affront to personal freedom. Once you have licensing at all, that ship has sailed. And if you are going to have licensing, the program should be designed to achieve the social goal, which graduated programs do better than just requiring an endorsement.

I don't like the German style with thousands of dollars of education required. The barrier to entry is too high. Perhaps require something like that to graduate from Tier I to Tier II so that folks have a chance to decide whether it's worth it to them or not?

I got my license via an MSF course and found it very, very helpful but certainly not enough do declare "job done" on the learning. I am still learning the basics, but am having a blast. I do intend to invest in more training in the future because frankly, the better control you have of the bike the more fun it is in addition to increasing your life expectancy.

Dirt riding as an introduction is not an option for those of us in urban areas without venues. As nice as it would be to have a dirt bike (and I wanted one something awful as a kid) it's just not an option if you don't have easy access to the dirt. I have to learn on the street, so I bought a bike I could handle and pick my routes and times of day with care. It's not perfect, but has worked for me so far.

At the end of the day, a certain number of reckless stunt riders will kill themselves. But the odds go down dramatically if we can enforce licensing requirements and get them through the initial really steep learning curve of the basic body coordination to operate the bike without dying.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:02 AM   #59
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What about a state that does not require insurance for a motorcycle....washington. No helmet....idaho and on. We can not legislate the things that keep us alive...common sense. These stories are about people that will eventually end up dead due to something they can not think thru. Unfortunately, many times they injure or kill the rest of us.

On the way to work this gentleman on a sportster with high rise bars and new tires felt the need to slow down at a stop sign. Guess he felt he needed to be in front of the cager. It was very surreal watching elbows and assholes flop around with the bike in front of me. He ended up on top of the bike cussing because his own common sense failed him and he needed something to blame. Dam I wish I had spell checker!
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:44 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by woofer2609 View Post
We have a social responsibility to look after one another.
Are you really trying to teach this on a US forum? Good luck fellow!
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