ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-05-2013, 09:35 AM   #46
maddiedog
PCX or GTFO
 
maddiedog's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Oddometer: 223
I don't think 250cc scooters are good commuters. When I had my Reflex, it was hard to keep up with traffic. I ran that poor 250 at WOT for 10k miles before the engine finally grenaded. I was up to date on maintenance too.

I've owned lots of Hondas -- including both a Reflex and a Silverwing. The Reflex handles more like my PCX than the Silverwing... I'd definitely consider the Reflex a large scooter, not a maxi scooter. The PCX and Reflex aren't very scooter-y in handling either though, you need something with a short wheelbase for that, like the Ruckus or the old Elites or Sprees. Those are true scooters.

Adding to the original conversation, I bought a Silverwing for touring and hated it. It had no soul. Don't get me wrong, it was a GREAT bike. It was cheap, durable, extremely reliable, and very comfortable. But it was BORING. I felt like I was caging, and since my Honda Fit gets 40mpg and the Silverwing only got 45-55mpg depending on speed, what was the point?

I still had fun times on that Silverwing though. I put 5k miles on it in 2 months, so Honda did something right there.
__________________
Honda PCX 170 / WeeStrom 650
http://www.hondapcx.org
maddiedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #47
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddiedog View Post
I don't think 250cc scooters are good commuters. When I had my Reflex, it was hard to keep up with traffic. I ran that poor 250 at WOT for 10k miles before the engine finally grenaded. I was up to date on maintenance too.

I've owned lots of Hondas -- including both a Reflex and a Silverwing. The Reflex handles more like my PCX than the Silverwing... I'd definitely consider the Reflex a large scooter, not a maxi scooter. The PCX and Reflex aren't very scooter-y in handling either though, you need something with a short wheelbase for that, like the Ruckus or the old Elites or Sprees. Those are true scooters.

Adding to the original conversation, I bought a Silverwing for touring and hated it. It had no soul. Don't get me wrong, it was a GREAT bike. It was cheap, durable, extremely reliable, and very comfortable. But it was BORING. I felt like I was caging, and since my Honda Fit gets 40mpg and the Silverwing only got 45-55mpg depending on speed, what was the point?

I still had fun times on that Silverwing though. I put 5k miles on it in 2 months, so Honda did something right there.

Interesting. I have 24,000 miles on a Vino 125, almost all of it at WOT, and it still runs like new. One possible difference is that I have ridden it only on level ground and slight grades. I tried to ride it up into the mountains once, and it was hammering that poor little engine to pieces. I quickly turned around. A 250 probably has enough power to climb mountains, but if the rpms are to low, something is eventually going to break due to being overstressed. I can't say if that is the case with the Reflex, I don't know how you rode it, or what kind of gearing it has.


I have been looking at scooters in the 300cc range, because their top speeds will keep up with highway traffic, at least close enough to be reasonably safe in the right lane. But I failed to take into account climbing steep hills. I'm sure they will do it, at a much lower speed, but what kind of stress is that going to place on the engine? It looks like I need to give up on the smaller scoots, and look for a used Honda Silverwing. I prefer it to the Burg 650 because it is easier to handle, and does not have a reputation for transmission problems.
__________________
2002 Vulcan 750 (engine out, slowly being disassembled) 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #48
maddiedog
PCX or GTFO
 
maddiedog's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Oddometer: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Interesting. I have 24,000 miles on a Vino 125, almost all of it at WOT, and it still runs like new. One possible difference is that I have ridden it only on level ground and slight grades. I tried to ride it up into the mountains once, and it was hammering that poor little engine to pieces. I quickly turned around. A 250 probably has enough power to climb mountains, but if the rpms are to low, something is eventually going to break due to being overstressed. I can't say if that is the case with the Reflex, I don't know how you rode it, or what kind of gearing it has.


I have been looking at scooters in the 300cc range, because their top speeds will keep up with highway traffic, at least close enough to be reasonably safe in the right lane. But I failed to take into account climbing steep hills. I'm sure they will do it, at a much lower speed, but what kind of stress is that going to place on the engine? It looks like I need to give up on the smaller scoots, and look for a used Honda Silverwing. I prefer it to the Burg 650 because it is easier to handle, and does not have a reputation for transmission problems.
I upgraded the gearing on the Reflex by adding a MUCH taller tire. It raised the top speed from 70mph or so to roughly 80mph. I think that's likely the culprit. It did die up a steep hill on I-75 at full throttle, with that gear upgrade, at 75mph or so. You just can't keep up with Atlanta traffic unless you can go 75+, I still almost get run over on my Nighthawk 250 and it's a LOT faster than the Reflex was. CVTs make you lose a lot of power.

Bear in mind that the new 300cc Honda Forza is fuel-injected. The Reflex was carb'd, and not tuned well in my opinion. Hell, my 125cc Honda PCX is quicker than the Reflex was up to about 50mph or so. FI makes a big difference... You may be ok with it.
__________________
Honda PCX 170 / WeeStrom 650
http://www.hondapcx.org
maddiedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 01:19 PM   #49
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,498
The Nighthawk 250 may not be fast (I had a Rebel 250) but it has low enough gearing to climb any hill (on a highway) in North America without over stressing the engine. There is nowhere my Rebel wouldn't go, but I sometimes had to ride on the shoulder to keep from getting run over. At least I could keep the engine rpms up. It had a really low first gear. I had it topped out at an indicated 80 mph (actual about 74 mph) quite a few times, on flat level roads.
__________________
2002 Vulcan 750 (engine out, slowly being disassembled) 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 02:02 PM   #50
Jurgen
Trolljegeren
 
Jurgen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Sandoval, Nuevo Mexico
Oddometer: 39,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddiedog View Post
I upgraded the gearing on the Reflex by adding a MUCH taller tire. It raised the top speed from 70mph or so to roughly 80mph. I think that's likely the culprit. It did die up a steep hill on I-75 at full throttle, with that gear upgrade, at 75mph or so. You just can't keep up with Atlanta traffic unless you can go 75+, I still almost get run over on my Nighthawk 250 and it's a LOT faster than the Reflex was. CVTs make you lose a lot of power.
I've been in this subforum a bit as I can see myself commuting by Scooter.

But, for me, it would mean an alternate route. Even on a 250cc or 300cc Scoot I don't think, normally, I'd do the divided road (60mph speed limit) to Interstate (65mph speed limit) that I drive.

On the scooter I'd pick a lovely surface street 45mph speed limit and enjoy the mega homes by the river. I'd probably have to allow another 15 minutes or so on each end.

I do want something that could go my "standard" routing occasionally though.

But, yeah, I would absolutely want a Scooter that gets in the 65-70 mpg range, not a 45mpg S-Wing.
__________________
They're nihilists, Donny, nothing to be afraid of.


Moderator:CSM/JoMomma/ShinyThings/Sports
Jurgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 08:05 PM   #51
Bueller
Cashin?
 
Bueller's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Hide Away Hills, Ohio
Oddometer: 17,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen View Post
I've been in this subforum a bit as I can see myself commuting by Scooter.

But, for me, it would mean an alternate route. Even on a 250cc or 300cc Scoot I don't think, normally, I'd do the divided road (60mph speed limit) to Interstate (65mph speed limit) that I drive.

On the scooter I'd pick a lovely surface street 45mph speed limit and enjoy the mega homes by the river. I'd probably have to allow another 15 minutes or so on each end.

I do want something that could go my "standard" routing occasionally though.

But, yeah, I would absolutely want a Scooter that gets in the 65-70 mpg range, not a 45mpg S-Wing.
The BV350 is the closest you will get to hitting that sweet spot. I'm averaging 63 mpg with a commute that is about 11 miles hwy (I travel 70 mph actual - about 77 mph indicated) and 4 miles of fairly crappy stop and go. I don't feel the BV is stressed too much at 70, but running at speeds much in excess of 80 indicated it starts running out of steam. I rode it two up with a topcase installed over the weekend in pretty stiff winds, and pinned it managed about 84 indicated. In calm winds with only one person aboard I'm sure it would surpass 90 indicated.

In short, it would serve both of your commuting options with good acceleration and reasonable mileage. Once I removed the backrest (buttrest???) on the seat I find it to be more comfortable than almost every motorcycle I've ever owned - even the '08 GL 1800 I used to have.
__________________
"Bueller, you're an island of sense in a sea of bullshit" - swimmer

"bueller, you ARE an island of reason in a sea of bullshit" - quasigentrified
Bueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 12:45 AM   #52
Jurgen
Trolljegeren
 
Jurgen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Sandoval, Nuevo Mexico
Oddometer: 39,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
The BV350 is the closest you will get to hitting that sweet spot. I'm averaging 63 mpg with a commute that is about 11 miles hwy (I travel 70 mph actual - about 77 mph indicated) and 4 miles of fairly crappy stop and go. I don't feel the BV is stressed too much at 70, but running at speeds much in excess of 80 indicated it starts running out of steam. I rode it two up with a topcase installed over the weekend in pretty stiff winds, and pinned it managed about 84 indicated. In calm winds with only one person aboard I'm sure it would surpass 90 indicated.

In short, it would serve both of your commuting options with good acceleration and reasonable mileage. Once I removed the backrest (buttrest???) on the seat I find it to be more comfortable than almost every motorcycle I've ever owned - even the '08 GL 1800 I used to have.
BV350 is high on my check out list, when I get serious. The other-- if they bring it-- is the Xmax.

Unfortunately our Piaggio/Vespa/Kymco/Genuine/MotoGuzzi dealer has a pretty poor reputation. I'd rather deal with the Yamaha place.

The Kymco 300GTi (or is it GTi300?) is also interesting, but they have the same problem Piaggio and Vespa have here.
__________________
They're nihilists, Donny, nothing to be afraid of.


Moderator:CSM/JoMomma/ShinyThings/Sports

Jurgen screwed with this post 08-06-2013 at 12:55 AM Reason: Genuine for Sym
Jurgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 06:57 AM   #53
Bronco638
Nobody Home
 
Bronco638's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Itasca, IL
Oddometer: 3,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddiedog
I upgraded the gearing on the Reflex by adding a MUCH taller tire. It raised the top speed from 70mph or so to roughly 80mph. I think that's likely the culprit. It did die up a steep hill on I-75 at full throttle, with that gear upgrade, at 75mph or so. You just can't keep up with Atlanta traffic unless you can go 75+, I still almost get run over on my Nighthawk 250 and it's a LOT faster than the Reflex was. CVTs make you lose a lot of power.

Bear in mind that the new 300cc Honda Forza is fuel-injected. The Reflex was carb'd, and not tuned well in my opinion. Hell, my 125cc Honda PCX is quicker than the Reflex was up to about 50mph or so. FI makes a big difference... You may be ok with it.
Did you happen to autopsy the Reflex? I'm curious because there are some that speculate the exhaust valve gets cooked due to the catalytic muffler. This happens due to sustained running at high rpm (like a lot of freeway travel).

By any chance did you perform the K-Mod on your Reflex? I ask because after the K-Mod, I have out accelerated Corvettes (to about 40 mph and then it's all over ). I will agree that it's not well tuned.
__________________
There are some simple thruths......and dogs know what they are - Joseph Duemer

Andy holds the lead. And he will, all the way to the Highway. Today is his day.
Bronco638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 07:20 AM   #54
maddiedog
PCX or GTFO
 
maddiedog's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Oddometer: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco638 View Post
Did you happen to autopsy the Reflex? I'm curious because there are some that speculate the exhaust valve gets cooked due to the catalytic muffler. This happens due to sustained running at high rpm (like a lot of freeway travel).

By any chance did you perform the K-Mod on your Reflex? I ask because after the K-Mod, I have out accelerated Corvettes (to about 40 mph and then it's all over ). I will agree that it's not well tuned.
I tried it and ended up losing top-end power. It was like a rocket for a 250 up until around 60, then it would be revving too high for the speed. A fresh set of rollers with the stock configuration made it sound normal again. I would have done DR Pulley sliders if it hadn't blown up on me, they're supposedly the holy grail.

As for autopsy, I'm unsure what happened. The engine was completely seized after it cooled off. I managed to trade it as-is, not running, for a working Yamaha Vino 125, so I cut my losses and didn't think twice about it. That said though, the Vino was the single WORST scooter I've ever owned. It had no power for a 125, got 70mpg at best, and I felt like I was riding my 50cc Honda Metropolitan again...
__________________
Honda PCX 170 / WeeStrom 650
http://www.hondapcx.org
maddiedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 08:07 AM   #55
wannabe1
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Oddometer: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
I almost never see Chinese scooters around here. I don't think anyone sells them around here. More than anything else, this a Harley town. Scooters in general don't sell that well around here as all the dealers tell me. As for the scooters I do see around town, I probably see more maxi scooters than I do smaller ones.

Huntsville is actually a great town for getting around on a small to midsize scooter. I'm not sure why scooters haven't caught on here but perhaps the lack of effective marketing on the part of the dealers is part of the reason.
Speaking of Huntsville dealers, I stopped in at Cycle Nation last Saturday and inquired when they may be getting a Forza in. He didn't know what the Forza was, but had heard of the Grom. I don't want to get off topic, but I truly don't know how you can be a salesman and not know the product you were hired to sell. Maybe he was the ATV specialist.
wannabe1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 09:26 AM   #56
maddiedog
PCX or GTFO
 
maddiedog's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Oddometer: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe1 View Post
Speaking of Huntsville dealers, I stopped in at Cycle Nation last Saturday and inquired when they may be getting a Forza in. He didn't know what the Forza was, but had heard of the Grom. I don't want to get off topic, but I truly don't know how you can be a salesman and not know the product you were hired to sell. Maybe he was the ATV specialist.
Dealers don't get much markup on scooters, bigger bikes have a way higher profit margin. It's not uncommon for the salespeople to know nothing about the scooters they're selling. It's just not worth their effort.
__________________
Honda PCX 170 / WeeStrom 650
http://www.hondapcx.org
maddiedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 09:36 AM   #57
klaviator
Beastly Adventurer
 
klaviator's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 5,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe1 View Post
Speaking of Huntsville dealers, I stopped in at Cycle Nation last Saturday and inquired when they may be getting a Forza in. He didn't know what the Forza was, but had heard of the Grom. I don't want to get off topic, but I truly don't know how you can be a salesman and not know the product you were hired to sell. Maybe he was the ATV specialist.
Unfortunately, a lot of salesmen in just about every field, not just motorcycles, don't know their product. A common thought in the sales field is that a good salesman can sell anything.

One issue in motorcycle sales is that most jobs in the motorcycle industry don't pay that well. That includes sales. That means that finding qualified people to fill those positions isn't that easy. The salesman you talked to may have been a sportbike guy, or ATV guy,r whatever, and just didn't care about other stuff. I used to sell Yamaha and Kawasaki Motorcycles, ATVs and Jet Skiis. I put a lot of effort into educating myself on all of them. Many salesmen do not.
__________________
I ride, Therefore I Am.



klaviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 10:19 AM   #58
larrylarry75
Nacho Mama
 
larrylarry75's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Southern OR coast
Oddometer: 300
MP3 500 versus GTS250

I've been waiting for someone to mention Piaggio's MP3 500 as one of the maxis but so far it's not happening. Maybe scooter riders don't regard it as a maxi-scooter because of the dual front wheels?

I've traveled a bit on mine and never once felt it wasn't capable of sustained freeway speeds of 75+ mph. That level still leaves 14-15 mph in reserve which is all I generally need for passing, etc. This particular model has enough mass to help handle cross winds, etc., so semi-trucks & buffeting don't pose much of a problem. Fuel mileage runs in the neighborhood of 55-60 mpg which I think is acceptable.

My other scooter is an older Vespa GTS250. I've ridden it on freeways at sustained speeds of 70 mph and find that the lighter weight makes it more susceptible to buffeting. Nothing severe but I do my best to not ride directly behind semi's for that reason. Because of its smaller engine the fuel mileage tends to be better, around 65-70 mpg. Handling at higher speeds isn't bad but it's acceptable, just not as relaxed as the MP3's.

For long range riding I prefer the MP3 500; it's more stable and I've added a custom saddle for increased comfort. For commuting I should think either one would work however If I were going to do very much lane splitting the GTS250 would be my choice.

LL75
larrylarry75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 12:03 PM   #59
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,498
While I like the MP3s, I would be leery of buying one. They seem to have a lot of problems with the front end, and I've heard Piaggio may quit selling them here. If that happens, it's only a matter of time until it will be hard to find parts for them or anyone to work on them.
__________________
2002 Vulcan 750 (engine out, slowly being disassembled) 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #60
Kernalpanx
Adventurer
 
Kernalpanx's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: Beijing, China
Oddometer: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
The most expensive thing in the world...is cheap junk.

Especially when you buy it with the idea it will hold up for a time. My two chunks...Chinese junks...were a waste. One blew the motor while under warranty; and then spent NINE MONTHS waiting for parts. Then, back home once more, I hit a deer with it. Broken panels I cannot replace. I'm trying to rig the frame to ride without the tupperware.

The other, I sold for 60 percent of what I paid for it. I want NOTHING more to do with Chinese trash - there's no quality and no support.

When the Chinese learn what they have to do to keep their stuff running and service it in this country when it brakes...I'll buy. Not until.
This is a big problem even living in China with the Chinese made scooters.... Zero dealer support zero customer service and questionable quality.
That being said .... To buy Japanese German or even Taiwanese ... You are paying triple the price .... A new legally imported Tmax 530... Is about 180000 rmb ... Or 28000 US dollars .... It is crazy... But you cannot get a maxi other wise.. If you go the illegal import route ... About 98890 rmb .. About 14000 ...... Well then you need illegal fake plates and insurance .... Which is what most people do here.
I am trying to ride a legal Chinese Benelli ( designed in Italy built in China) ... I love the bike the ride everything... Not thrilled with dealer support ... Living in Chinavis awesome ... Everyday I get to say OIC ... Only in China
Kernalpanx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014