ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-05-2013, 12:24 PM   #16
concours
WFO for 41 years
 
concours's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Kensington, NH USA
Oddometer: 5,073
I'm in
__________________
Too much is just barely enough.....
concours is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2013, 08:15 PM   #17
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
I mentioned this earlier, but no one replied. I now think this issue may be worth looking at.

In this pic of the starter gear that goes on the crank, if you look close, you can see that the bronze bushing in the starter gear is sticking out .50mm past the end of the hub. This is forcing everything outward .50mm. This would include the washer that goes behind the flywheel/rotor, the flywheel itself, and the bolt holding the flywheel on. Would this not mean technically,,, my flywheel is not all the way on.







I could be totally wrong. But I think it's worth checking into. I have 2 different starter gear's, and they both are like this. However. I did call a dealer today and have him look at a starter gear. He said the bushing did not stick out past. It was in fact, recessed a little. Argo confirms his is below the surface also.

If you look at this pic that appiebroomer posted, the bushing is not letting part #16,, plate washer,, ride in the proper spot.






I think it may also be causing this damage. You guy's need to check to see if yours looks like this. I have 2 different motor's and they both look the same. I don't know if the clearance is that tight have the flywheel sticking out that tiny bit would matter. But I won't sleep good until I know.



__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G

CalsXS2 screwed with this post 08-07-2013 at 07:19 AM
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 05:22 AM   #18
appiebroomer
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Oddometer: 36
Cal, yes my rotor and stator also have that damage. I also checked one of my spare sprocket wheels and the bushing is also pushed out a bit. These conditions may also be the source of some of the noise we are experiencing. Gonna have to look into this a little further.
appiebroomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 06:21 AM   #19
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by appiebroomer View Post
Cal, yes my rotor and stator also have that damage. I also checked one of my spare sprocket wheels and the bushing is also pushed out a bit. These conditions may also be the source of some of the noise we are experiencing. Gonna have to look into this a little further.

Now this is funny. Last night before I went to bed, I had this whole chain noise figured out. So I thought. I posted in this thread about it, and the other thread,,, cross linking the two.

Then in the middle of the night, half asleep during a nature call,,, it came to me I was totally wrong in my way of thinking. So I hurried up and deleted everything before you guy's seen it, and I lost credibility since I was so far off.

Now you post this. I'm so glad you did. All though I was talking about a different noise that I was after,,, chain slap,,, this is definatly a noise I have to.

Sometimes I hear what I think is the balancer chain grinding away like we know it does. This motor I'm running right now does not have the tensioner.

So the point is, I was so caught up in the chain noise, I was over looking at the obvious noise that this rotor has to be making. Good catch.
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 07:26 PM   #20
appiebroomer
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Oddometer: 36
Cal, You had me wondering about that noise on the left side and the galling on the rotor and stator so I took mine apart today. I made up a chain tensioner out of a piece of Ultra high molecular weight plastic kinda like what shows in the parts manual. I also put a set screw in the sprocket that sits on the starter shaft to prevent the chain and sprocket from wandering around on the shaft. I figure those two things should stop the starter chain from slapping around and making any noise.
I also looked into the galling on the rotor and stator. I took a die grinder with a sanding roll on it and cleaned up all the surfaces that were galled then I coated all those areas, including the area where the chain was rubbing on the cover with die makers blue and reassembled it, cranked the engine over for about a minute and then took it apart and checked for any new contact. None. Put it back together, ran it, no noise. Maybe I'll take it apart in a week or so just check. But it sounds better now.
Al
appiebroomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 07:50 PM   #21
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by appiebroomer View Post
Cal, You had me wondering about that noise on the left side and the galling on the rotor and stator so I took mine apart today. I made up a chain tensioner out of a piece of Ultra high molecular weight plastic kinda like what shows in the parts manual. I also put a set screw in the sprocket that sits on the starter shaft to prevent the chain and sprocket from wandering around on the shaft. I figure those two things should stop the starter chain from slapping around and making any noise.
I also looked into the galling on the rotor and stator. I took a die grinder with a sanding roll on it and cleaned up all the surfaces that were galled then I coated all those areas, including the area where the chain was rubbing on the cover with die makers blue and reassembled it, cranked the engine over for about a minute and then took it apart and checked for any new contact. None. Put it back together, ran it, no noise. Maybe I'll take it apart in a week or so just check. But it sounds better now.
Al
Fantastic!! Please tell me you took picture's.

Was the starter gear bushing sticking out like your extra one. I would think it almost had to be if you had the galling. Did you push it back in.

I don't remember my cover being damaged by the chain. Damitt. Here it is 10:00pm,,, and I gotta go tare this thing apart.


Let me know when you take yours apart again. I have some question's.

How about a pic of that bumper. Did you make extra's for everyone,,,,lol.
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #22
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
AL.

I'm so glad I went and tore it apart.

Of course I found out where the chain is rubbing the cover. WE NEED PIC'S OF THAT TENSIONER YOU MADE!!

I found a clearly marked path.







But. I also found another little surprise. The chain has been rubbing the wiring. One of the wires is rubbed at least half way through. No wonder I can't get this thing to run right. I think this would mostly effect my timing. I have been fight what I thought was a lean condition, because of an air leak. New boots, butterfly seals, and 2 different sets of carbs and I still get a popping out of the exhaust an deceleration. I wonder if this wiring could have anything to do with that.

__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 02:24 AM   #23
argo1974
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2013
Oddometer: 19
About starter gear bushing problem:
As already mentioned in the email I sent to Calvin, this bushing should sit around 0,2mm lower than the outer face of the clutch hub.

Starter chain tensioner was used on the very first bikes only produced 8/72. Those bikes also had different starter gear, starter sprocket and starter chain with different pitch.
The chain tensioner looked this:


Though Yamaha dropped starter chain tensioner, the early style engine cases still have corresponding area machined.
While restoring my early style engine, I added a self made chain tensioner:


I used 2.5mm sheet metal and cut a piece out of a car cam chain tensioner.

Argo
argo1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 06:00 AM   #24
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
I bet you guys could sell some chain tensioner's if you wanted to make some extra's. hint hint
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 07:25 AM   #25
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
With the OEM design,,,, wouldn't the two metal part's rub together and introduce metal shaving's into the oil.
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #26
appiebroomer
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Oddometer: 36
Popping from exhaust

Cal, that popping is that from one side only ? If it is, it's likely a synchronization issue. Are you running stock exhaust ? I found by going to a larger pilot jet that the popping is also minimized.
I'll post a photo of the tensioner after I take it apart again.
The bare wires are from the alternator and shouldn't have anything to do with the popping issue.
appiebroomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 11:04 AM   #27
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by appiebroomer View Post
Cal, that popping is that from one side only ? If it is, it's likely a synchronization issue. Are you running stock exhaust ? I found by going to a larger pilot jet that the popping is also minimized.
I'll post a photo of the tensioner after I take it apart again.
The bare wires are from the alternator and shouldn't have anything to do with the popping issue.


I can't tell which side it's coming from since the exhaust has that goofy balancer up front.

My original exhaust was trash when I got it. I got a doaner bike that someone cut the back off the pipe's. They are a little shorter. But they sound great. I've all way's wondered if this could cause the popping too.

I changed the jetting from one extreme to the other,,, and everything in between. No change.
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 06:34 PM   #28
CalsXS2 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
CalsXS2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Oddometer: 120
OK guy's. Wait a minute. Please correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong.

But the chain is only moving when the starter is spinning. That would mean that you shouldn't be able to hear any noise from the chain at all when the engine is running. Am I right.

Of course we can all see the damage from the chain. So a tensioner is definitely needed. But not to fix any engine noise,,, in my opinion. But I could be wrong.





Now speaking of the tensioner. I'm just rolling idea's around in my head. I thought I could maybe come up with a Ultra High Molecular Plastic tube, as long as it would wear ok. Then just for ease of installation, bolt it to some kind of bracket.

This is just a 1/2" o.d. regular nylon spacer I'm using just as a visual model.







It is too big to go on the underside of the chain. I would have to use a smaller diameter tube. I guess that would be ok, but so far, I haven't seen any that small. But I haven't really looked that hard either.







Another option would be to put it above the chain. This would be fairly easy. I could just make a small bracket. But I'm worried about the direction of rotation. Would it be ok to put it above the chain like this. What do you guy's think??







I really open to idea's here.
__________________
72 Yamaha XS650
73 Yamaha TX750
82 Suzuki GS650 G
CalsXS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 07:38 PM   #29
baloneyskin daddy
bikaholic
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: southcentral PA.
Oddometer: 1,904
You don't want it above the chain ,there would be way to much stress on it when cranking it over. All tensioners should be on the non stress side of the sprockets.
baloneyskin daddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:29 AM   #30
appiebroomer
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Oddometer: 36
Above the chain is not good. When the starter is cranked it would put too much pressure on the tensioner. Bottom is the only place.
Even though the chain is not turning when the engine is running it will still vibrate and move around. The tensioner I made is under the chain. I'll post a photo later.
appiebroomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014