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Old 08-05-2013, 11:17 AM   #16
JerryH
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IF you had 2 bikes, say a 125cc motorcycle with a manual transmission, and a 125cc scooter with a CVT transmission, and they both had tachometers, and you climbed the same steep hill with both, with the motorcycle in the proper gear for climbing a steep hill, you would notice that the engine RPMs were a lot higher on the manual transmission motorcycle than the CVT scooter, bit with the same size engine, giving the motorcycle far more pulling power and leverage to pull a heavy load up the side of a mountain.

My Zuma does a little better at climbing hills than the Vino, but it is still very slow AND runs at much slower RPMs than my Stella in low gear. The really low engine RPMs under a heavy load on a CVT scooter is what I am complaining about. It's beating the poor little engine to death. 8 hp is plenty to climb anything without over stressing the engine/transmission, with a low enough gear. My 125cc scooters do not have a low enough gear, and it severely over stresses the engine and drivetrain pulling my 230 pounds and the weight of the scooter uphill.

Very possibly the reason no body is understanding this is because they just go ahead and climb anyway, with the scooter way over geared.

Even in an automatic transmission car, the transmission will downshift to keep the engine at the proper speed while climbing. My '01 Chevy automatic stays just below 2000 rpm at 65 mph. But when climbing a hill, it downshifts, and the rpms go up above 3500 rpm, to give it climbing power. My scooters do not do this. It seems the only way to get the rpms up on them is to ride them at top speed on a level road. The rpms go up when at top speed, but they do not go up under a heavy load, like a long steep climb, when that little engine needs to be spinning fast.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
IF you had 2 bikes, say a 125cc motorcycle with a manual transmission, and a 125cc scooter with a CVT transmission, and they both had tachometers, and you climbed the same steep hill with both, with the motorcycle in the proper gear for climbing a steep hill, you would notice that the engine RPMs were a lot higher on the manual transmission motorcycle than the CVT scooter, bit with the same size engine, giving the motorcycle far more pulling power and leverage to pull a heavy load up the side of a mountain.

My Zuma does a little better at climbing hills than the Vino, but it is still very slow AND runs at much slower RPMs than my Stella in low gear. The really low engine RPMs under a heavy load on a CVT scooter is what I am complaining about. It's beating the poor little engine to death. 8 hp is plenty to climb anything without over stressing the engine/transmission, with a low enough gear. My 125cc scooters do not have a low enough gear, and it severely over stresses the engine and drivetrain pulling my 230 pounds and the weight of the scooter uphill.

Very possibly the reason no body is understanding this is because they just go ahead and climb anyway, with the scooter way over geared.

Even in an automatic transmission car, the transmission will downshift to keep the engine at the proper speed while climbing. My '01 Chevy automatic stays just below 2000 rpm at 65 mph. But when climbing a hill, it downshifts, and the rpms go up above 3500 rpm, to give it climbing power. My scooters do not do this. It seems the only way to get the rpms up on them is to ride them at top speed on a level road. The rpms go up when at top speed, but they do not go up under a heavy load, like a long steep climb, when that little engine needs to be spinning fast.
You are basing your opinion on your scooters and your weight. This doesn't mean all scooters perform like yours and also some of us weight less than you. I agree that a manual transmission will out perform a CVT, but CVT transmissions can work up steep hills. Many, if not most ATVs come with CVT transmissions and they are quite capable of climbing steep hills. My Kymco has pulled me up some very steep hills. Yes it slowed down. My XT350 also can't pull top speed up a steep hill. Yes it will probably climb steeper hills than almost any scooter but I have yet to go up a paved hill my scooters couldn't climb.

You are the only one I have seen on this forum making such a big deal over climbing hills. If it was that big of an issue, more people would be complaining.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #18
alicethomas
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Manual transmission is more universal and effective than cvt.
If you want most performance out of the engine, don't take a scooter.

But an ATV with cvt and additional reduction gear might climb your peak, although with the inherent cvt losses.
Perhaps the common scooter manufactures already had a look into the typical scooterists needs.

alicethomas screwed with this post 08-05-2013 at 11:38 AM
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:35 AM   #19
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uh, if you have a lot of hills, get a larger displacement scooter? this seems like an academic dispute, not a pragmatic one.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by quasigentrified View Post
uh, if you have a lot of hills, get a larger displacement scooter? this seems like an academic dispute, not a pragmatic one.
I don't know that a larger displacement scooter will always climb a steeper hill than a smaller one, it will just do it faster. Jerry complains because his two 125cc scooters with CVT transmissions won't pull him up a steep hill. My 150cc scooter has no problems pulling me up very steep hills. It has only slightly more power than his scooters. I do believe it is geared a little better for climbing hills. Jerry just assumes that since his scooters don't perform well on hills then all CVT scooters will have the same problem.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
Jerry, maybe the reason people have trouble understanding this is that they don't have this problem. My Super 8 150 climbs steep hills without any problems. It is only a 150 so it won't go 60 MPH up steep hills but it will climb them without any issues. My Sport city is more affected by hills but does OK as long as I'm not carrying a passenger. If I wanted better hill climbing ability I could install lighter rollers or sliders. It's a simple fix. I don't understand why you keep harping on this issue.

Does anyone else out there have the severe hill climbing issues that Jerry does?
It might have been the altitude of 10,000 feet. I've found that all of our shop's scooters would climb very steep hills, even from a standing uphill start.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:04 PM   #22
JerryH
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
You are basing your opinion on your scooters and your weight. This doesn't mean all scooters perform like yours and also some of us weight less than you. I agree that a manual transmission will out perform a CVT, but CVT transmissions can work up steep hills. Many, if not most ATVs come with CVT transmissions and they are quite capable of climbing steep hills. My Kymco has pulled me up some very steep hills. Yes it slowed down. My XT350 also can't pull top speed up a steep hill. Yes it will probably climb steeper hills than almost any scooter but I have yet to go up a paved hill my scooters couldn't climb.

You are the only one I have seen on this forum making such a big deal over climbing hills. If it was that big of an issue, more people would be complaining.
I'm not complaining because the scooter is slowing down. Of course it is going to slow down on a steep hill, more of a load is being placed on it, but the power has not increased. I'm complaining because the engine rpms have slowed down. The engine is not turning fast enough to pull all that weight up a steep hill. This will pound the bearings to pieces in short order. It WILL climb, but very slowly. I have a 50cc Puch moped that climbs the same hills easily. Yes, it's road speed drops way down, but because it has a 2 speed transmission, it shifts into first gear, which is way lower than anything found on any CVT scooter, and I can keep the engine spinning at the same speed as it does in second gear at it's top speed of 30 mph, even if it is only doing 7 or 8 mph. CVT scooters simply do not have a low enough gear to keep the engine spinning fast enough while climbing.

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world" Archimedes. A CVT transmission does not have a long enough lever. And with that I'll give up trying to explain it.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:49 PM   #23
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Does anyone else out there have the severe hill climbing issues that Jerry does?
No, and we bounce between 5,000 and almost 12,000' elevation.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #24
longhaul747
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Of all the scooters I own they can climb hills (and we have plenty here) without much issue. They do slow down and that is expected but they never seem like they are struggling to go up them.

I feel if its hard on anything its hard on the transmission gear as it seems like things have to slip more in order to make it up the hill. However the motors never seem to strain doing it. They do tend to run at high rpm's while going up at slower rate but it does not seem stressful on the engine. Not anymore then being near WOT on the flats.

I am sure its very different when climbing hills at high elevations as scooters tend to have little reserve power. I never operated a scooter in such conditions but it seems for everything else they seem to work fine as long as everything else is in complete working order.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:35 PM   #25
ABritOnMaui
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I can only report my experiences and understanding. I often take my burg for a run up to 10k feet and back down to sealevel. It copes fine accelerating \ braking and has enough power to overtake bog standard rental cars uphill with my ample ass on it. After about 60mph it doesn't have quite the acceleration but this is to be expected. There is some loss of power at altitude due to lower oxygen levels but it only really becomes apparent over about 8000ft and even then it isn't significant.

As to CVT vs manual and which is most efficient. It probably varies with one implementation to the next but don't discount CVT. When you ride a scoot with a cvt you'll notice that from 0-10 mph the rpm's quickly climb to about 4000rpm then all they way up to about 60 mph it slowly climbs to about 6000rpm then above that the rpm's climb rapidly to redline. There is a benefit to this. Rather than all the time in the higher rpm's where it is least fuel efficient for the power generated it keeps you lower down the rev range. If you want to run at high speed it is going to drink fuel no matter what. The higher up the rev range the more disproportionate the fuel usage. Assuming you are not running a burgman over about 65mph you shouldn't notice excessive fuel use, in fact compared to a manual where, unless you short shifted, you would have used the higher rev range, in theory you probably got mildly better fuel economy. There are other factors that work against this, but as it is sold to us, a cvt should be a little more efficient.

In summary the cvt should keep the engine in its most efficient working range for more of the time assuming you aren't running at top speed. Hills should not be an issue unless you want to take them at 90mph, if you do you probably want a larger displacement rather than a different transmission. At least with the burg it seems to be designed not to leave its midrange until you are at the point where you will be troubling speed cameras \ chp officers :)
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:10 PM   #26
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honda grom

How about the new Honda Grom coming out this month, it's a motorcycle design but is scooter-like with 12" wheels and 4 speed manual transmission.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:00 AM   #27
Forde
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Older vespas or new replicas of same like lml, bajaj or genuine stella. My friend had a four speed vespa I love riding it.

Honda cub or innova or there are a bunch of replicas of the innova.

A lambretta would be awesome.

Im sure there are a bunch of other vintage geared ones
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:01 AM   #28
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How about the new Honda Grom coming out this month, it's a motorcycle design but is scooter-like with 12" wheels and 4 speed manual transmission.

The msx/grom has been out for months elsewhere. Is the usa finally getting it

Its a motorcycle with smal wheels. Ergos exactly like a bike and not a scooter
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:29 AM   #29
alicethomas
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There are scooters which are weak at climbing, i.e. the old Piaggio X9 125 with the carbureted leader engine.
Best torque at 8000rpm and best power (11kW/15hp) at 9750rpm.
Very heavy luxury scoot, high geared and an excellent highway cruiser capable of more than 110kph.
But unable to accelerate out of a 15kph switchback (engine only at ca. 4000 rpm) in an exceptional slope. Game over, push.
Even at modest slopes/speeds the Burgman 125 with "only" 9kW/12hp outperformed the X9 125.

But I doubt that a standard manual transmission with their huge gaps between gear 1 and 2 would be always better for every slope.
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:01 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
Jerry just assumes that since his scooters don't perform well on hills then all CVT scooters will have the same problem.
Jerry assumes a lot of things. Whether or not any of them are actually true is another matter altogether.
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