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Old 10-24-2013, 07:44 AM   #91
Lucky 7 OP
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Well, it's hard to beat that price! Sign me up. I'll shoot you a PM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:51 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyCash View Post
I realize that you're way into this, money wise, but I successfully rescued a gear oil soaked clutch disk by soaking it in gasoline for a few days, and then setting it on fire for a brief period to burn out the oil. Actually, I burned it, smothered it out after 30 sec or so then re-lit it a few times so that I wouldn't overheat it. That was a couple of years ago on my BMW, and it is still working fine. It had been slipping before the burn-out. I'd never do it if I was working o someone else's bike, but on my own, I figured it was worth a try.
This is my favorite ever. I've used fire to seat a tire, but saving a clutch is a new one on me.

I think that realistically I could salvage the discs with some resurfacing and brake cleaner, but after some consideration I've decided to replace. I'm enjoying the rebuild, but I don't want to do it again anytime soon. And besides, part of the idea of this build was to have something that, while not a show bike, is damn near as new as a 40 year old bike can be. Scrimping on clutch plates would be out of line with that goal.

I put together a wish list on MG Cycle that includes clutch, exhaust, and Gilardoni jugs and right now its sitting just under $1500. Oy.

Who needs a drink?
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:29 AM   #93
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Oh, I totally realize that scrimping on clutch disks was perhaps not the best idea, but I just couldn't help myself, as is often the case. So far so good.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:39 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyCash View Post
I realize that you're way into this, money wise, but I successfully rescued a gear oil soaked clutch disk by soaking it in gasoline for a few days, and then setting it on fire for a brief period to burn out the oil. Actually, I burned it, smothered it out after 30 sec or so then re-lit it a few times so that I wouldn't overheat it. That was a couple of years ago on my BMW, and it is still working fine. It had been slipping before the burn-out. I'd never do it if I was working o someone else's bike, but on my own, I figured it was worth a try.
Necessity is the mother of invention. . . very funny
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #95
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Well, I didn't quite get to the engine yesterday. Instead I ended up on a unexpectedly long mtn bike ride and today my ass is killing me. I guess that's what I get for only riding like 5 times all summer.

Today I had work to do, but it left a few hours in the afternoon for the engine. I love days like that.

First off, I pulled the flywheel and found another fine mess behind.

 photo IMG_0460_zps7d5a6f75.jpg



It's really not terrible, just caked with oil and crud and god knows what. From all the crap around the breathers, I'm still thinking that a goodly amount of this mess from there. I'll make sure to seal up those gaps on the rebuild:

 photo IMG_0461_zps6e2d6cad.jpg



I didn't see this is the parts manual, but since it was here, I'm going to catalog it an reinstall as it was before:

 photo IMG_0464_zps71654dcc.jpg


That's a big chunk of wood! What the hell? It seems to be about 3/4 of a plug cut out by a hole saw. Why it's in the bell housing, I'll never know...

Rear main and crank come out:

 photo IMG_0465_zps0c332ae5.jpg


Now I understand the 'bucket' comments about the engine block:

 photo IMG_0463_zpsf4249f2d.jpg


And finally I'm left with a genuine, honest to pete stripped engine block. Well, I guess the cylinder pins are still there, but I'm not planning on pulling those. Progress!

 photo IMG_0466_zps66ce801c.jpg



And here's a closer shot of the starter ring. There definitely was a pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the bell housing that used to be attached in these parts:

 photo IMG_0467_zps61d80c99.jpg


Experts opinion? Is this thing toast or does it live to fight another day? With proper shimming, it shouldn't be a problem to get the starter to throw farther before it powers up, but your opinions are welcome.

Now I guess I'll check my tolerances and see what goes in the trash and what goes back into the box.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #96
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Alright, now I have a few random questions in no particular order that I'd be interested in general opinions on. Feel free to laugh, ignore, or respond.

1. First is a big one: the clutch. I assume that if I'm replacing discs I need to do friction plates as well? If that's the case (and it turns out that I need a new starter ring), I'm looking at $540 for the new clutch. OR I can get a RAM clutch for $600. Worth the money? Would this clutch make all of my wildest dreams come true?

2. Another big one: cylinder kits. Is the big bore kit worth the extra cash? I get nervous when I see that it requires 'slight material removal from the push rod tunnel'. Since I'm doing Gilardonis anyway I'll need to have the crank balanced, but I think the big bore would really need to blow my mind to justify the expense. Mostly I say that because I was perfectly happy with the strength of the bike as stock. Any experience either way? MG Cycle has both in stock right now.

3. Any best practices for engine block cleaning and old gasket removal? I'm not going anywhere near the seat surface with a brush or scraper. Mostly I assume this will just be a lot of elbow grease and a few cans of degreaser, but if there are any good tricks out there, I'm all ears. Power washer at the car wash?

4. Minor question, but Schnorr vs standard lock washers? Are the Schnorrs necessary or just recommended? Mostly I'm just curious on this one.


Thanks for all the input guys, this has been invaluable so far!
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:07 PM   #97
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If it were me, I'd soak the ring gear in gasoline and set fire to it. No, actually I'd take 15 minutes and file the burrs off of it and keep using it. That's what I did on mine, and it works fine, probably would have even if I left it alone.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:52 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 7 View Post
Alright, now I have a few random questions in no particular order that I'd be interested in general opinions on. Feel free to laugh, ignore, or respond.

2. Another big one: cylinder kits. Is the big bore kit worth the extra cash? I get nervous when I see that it requires 'slight material removal from the push rod tunnel'. Since I'm doing Gilardonis anyway I'll need to have the crank balanced, but I think the big bore would really need to blow my mind to justify the expense. Mostly I say that because I was perfectly happy with the strength of the bike as stock. Any experience either way? MG Cycle has both in stock right now.
I had a 74 850cc California and a 72 1000cc Eldorado (cast iron big bore kit) at the same time. Of the two engines, the 850 was the sweeter, with no significant difference in grunt or speed - just smoother all around.

Of course, after 40 years of abuse to both motors there could be any number of reasons for that, but that was my experience.

Nick
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:52 PM   #99
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All the ring gears I've seen on Guzzi look pretty worn...clean it up and use it...
About the wood piece...I'm gonna guess it was used to plug the bottom hole between the engine and trans....then they used the timing hole to put some cleaner(mineral spirits most likely) and ran the engine to clean the clutch plates...then pulled the wood plug and drained out the gunk....yes you can ask me how I know
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:31 PM   #100
MZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 7 View Post
Alright, now I have a few random questions in no particular order that I'd be interested in general opinions on. Feel free to laugh, ignore, or respond.

1. First is a big one: the clutch. I assume that if I'm replacing discs I need to do friction plates as well? If that's the case (and it turns out that I need a new starter ring), I'm looking at $540 for the new clutch. OR I can get a RAM clutch for $600. Worth the money? Would this clutch make all of my wildest dreams come true?

2. Another big one: cylinder kits. Is the big bore kit worth the extra cash? I get nervous when I see that it requires 'slight material removal from the push rod tunnel'. Since I'm doing Gilardonis anyway I'll need to have the crank balanced, but I think the big bore would really need to blow my mind to justify the expense. Mostly I say that because I was perfectly happy with the strength of the bike as stock. Any experience either way? MG Cycle has both in stock right now.

3. Any best practices for engine block cleaning and old gasket removal? I'm not going anywhere near the seat surface with a brush or scraper. Mostly I assume this will just be a lot of elbow grease and a few cans of degreaser, but if there are any good tricks out there, I'm all ears. Power washer at the car wash?

4. Minor question, but Schnorr vs standard lock washers? Are the Schnorrs necessary or just recommended? Mostly I'm just curious on this one.


Thanks for all the input guys, this has been invaluable so far!
My opinions, worth exactly what you paid for them:

1. Replace the friction discs since they're oil soaked. The pressure plate usually doesn't need to be replaced unless it's scored badly. The intermediate plate should be checked carefully for "coning" and warping. New ones aren't that expensive. Replace the clutch springs, they're cheap.

I'm not sold on the RAM clutch assembly. I know of several that only lasted a few thousand miles. Plus, I feel part of a Loopframe Guzzi's charm is the heavy flywheel and the "low enertia" unit dilutes that.

2. Big bore will give slightly more torque, but little more horsepower without further mods (bigger carbs, different cam, free flowing exhaust). If you use the Gilardoni 88mm "big bore" kits, the crank should really be rebalanced, otherwise you'll have slightly more vibration. If you use the Cycle Garden big bore kits, you won't need to rebalance, but they're quite a bit more expensive ($1350).

3. There are purpose made chemical gasket removers, but I find "Aircraft Remover" paint stripper works just as well. It will take several applications and some light scraping to get it all off.

Degreasing: parts cleaner (or large plastic tub) with Varsol/Stoddard Solvent/mineral spirits or Purple Power. After that, an aluminum cleaner and brightener such as Zep-A-Lume (if you can find it), EZ Brite aluminum trailer cleaner concentrate diluted 50/50 with water or Eagle 1 Mag Wheel Cleaner. Usually some scrubbing is involved and lots of rinsing is definitely necessary. Hot water at the quarter car-wash would be best. Do wear proper safety gear (chemical gloves, goggles, etc.) as it's all nasty stuff.

4. Schnoor washers have their place, but on aluminum castings isn't one of them. For flywheel bolts, yes. On the bolts securing the main bearing flanges for instance? No. I use DIN 137 wave washers there along with a coating of Hondabond 4 on the threads of the bolts as a low strength thread locker.
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'88 Ducati Paso, '91 ATK 604
'94 MZ Silver Star, '96 CCM 350
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:12 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by danedg View Post
How's the clutch hub? If it's in good shape I'd recommend you stick with the 2mm original, instead of ponying up for the super duper 4mm. Although the 4 gives you a meatier spline and claimed longer life, it also runs a tighter tolerance that could cause you conniptions to get right and wear a lot faster. Not to mention it's an extra $200.
I too prefer the 2mm original style, but the 4mm is actually cheaper.

2mm: $103.00: http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=432

4mm: $74.88: http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info....oducts_id=1163

Little difference in the cost of 2mm vs. 4mm clutch plates also.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:02 AM   #102
Lucky 7 OP
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Thanks a ton guys, this is really helpful info for me.

My clutch hub seems to be in fine shape, but the 2mm friction plates are out of stock with no foreseeable arrival time. I'm thinking that it's probably easiest for me to just go with 4mm and the new clutch hub. It's fairly affordable anyway.

Glad to hear that the RAM clutch isn't necessarily worth the cash. I don't need all the upgrade bells and whistles, but I want this to be a quality job. It's nice to know that it isn't a must.

Also, it seems like my suspicions are confirmed about the big bore kit. I think I'll just stick with the 83mm bore Gilardonis and have the crank balanced for super smooth running.

Next up I'll be disassembling the heads and checking valve tolerances. Once that's done, I think I can put in my order to MG Cycle and start putting this thing back together.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:14 AM   #103
MZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 7 View Post
Thanks a ton guys, this is really helpful info for me.

My clutch hub seems to be in fine shape, but the 2mm friction plates are out of stock with no foreseeable arrival time. I'm thinking that it's probably easiest for me to just go with 4mm and the new clutch hub. It's fairly affordable anyway.

Glad to hear that the RAM clutch isn't necessarily worth the cash. I don't need all the upgrade bells and whistles, but I want this to be a quality job. It's nice to know that it isn't a must.

Also, it seems like my suspicions are confirmed about the big bore kit. I think I'll just stick with the 83mm bore Gilardonis and have the crank balanced for super smooth running.

Next up I'll be disassembling the heads and checking valve tolerances. Once that's done, I think I can put in my order to MG Cycle and start putting this thing back together.
MG Cycle may be out of 2mm clutch plates, but do check with Harper's and Moto International. Also Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics did offer relined clutch plates that worked very well. Check to see if he still has any.
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'69 Guzzi Ambassador,'77 Yamaha XT500,
'88 Ducati Paso, '91 ATK 604
'94 MZ Silver Star, '96 CCM 350
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:16 AM   #104
MZRider
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Originally Posted by danedg View Post
A mind is a terrible thing...to waste.
I remember the sticker shock I received when I opened the invoice from Moto International. It was close to $200. When I pointed out that MG could sell me the thing for less than half they grudgingly matched the price.

I can't remember where I ended up getting the Intermediate plate from, but I'll never forget the hours it took to file every tooth so the thing would fit and operate. It was the worst piece of stamped out shit ever.

I bought two (so far) that didn't fit, apparently Stucchi didn't make them right. MG Cycle sent me replacements each time, no questions asked.
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'88 Ducati Paso, '91 ATK 604
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:23 AM   #105
MZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MZRider View Post
MG Cycle may be out of 2mm clutch plates, but do check with Harper's and Moto International. Also Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics did offer relined clutch plates that worked very well. Check to see if he still has any.
Oh, and don't be tempted to use Barnett friction plates. The spliny bits are stamped out crap and will wear out a clutch hub in very short order.

Also, be wary of Sureflex brand clutch plates. Good enough quality, but the friction material they use causes an "on/off" clutch - very grabby with little progression. It does get better with use, but there are better plates. Plus, some of the splined centers are made to fit 2mm or 4mm hubs and don't fit either all that well, causing premature wear. I think they've recently rectified that issue, but I still wouldn't use them.
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