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Old 08-23-2013, 12:27 PM   #61
Mercury264
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There is no earthly reason ANY GPS unit should cost that much. Allied to the fact that Garmin software it total and utter shite, I'll pass thanks.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Albie View Post
The motorcycle market is TINY compared to Garmins marine and aviation market. And most of the units for those applications are a hell of a lot more expensive then a ZUMO;
I think the reason for that is lack of signs, mile markers and other landmarks. So that makes sense.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #63
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they would have done the price matrix, and work out the optimum price it needs to be to make it profitable to themselves and their resellers. They can do that until another competitor establish themselves or copycats catch up- at the current rate it would take a looong time - in the meantime, why not rake it the profit and make it into a premium (priced) product.
Another way to look at it would be sell the Zumo for $400 and sell 4 times as many at a lower profit margin to recoup development costs. You get the same profit in the end but you also get 3X more market share. That's X number of units your competitor does not sell. That's valuable too. Sometimes moreso if they close the doors...like at Contour for the vid cams.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #64
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Garmin could buy out Contour, and with some additional tweaking try and compete with GoPro. Oh wait, never mind, it would cost $599 for their entry level camera.
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:16 PM   #65
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Garmin could buy out Contour, and with some additional tweaking try and compete with GoPro. Oh wait, never mind, it would cost $599 for their entry level camera.
dont they already make a camera.... camera market's competition stronger, so price would have to more competitive or shall i say less gouging involved!!!
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:50 PM   #66
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Garmin could buy out Contour, and with some additional tweaking try and compete with GoPro. Oh wait, never mind, it would cost $599 for their entry level camera.
Try $399

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod119594.html
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:34 PM   #67
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Just hope their video editing software works better than MapQuest!
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:11 PM   #68
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the camera looks pretty cool besides the weird form factor.

oh, wait, $400 ? ill use the old $180 gopro a few more years.

and the old $90 android phone for 10 different kinds of maps, that are free.

and the updates, that are free.

vibrations ? waterproof ? who cares, it was $90, 3 years ago !
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Wlfman View Post
Actually, that's not that bad of a price. I'm assuming some things, though, like a quality sensor and high bitrate (35-45 Mb/s) recording capability. Given the stats it probably uses the same or similar processor to the GoPro3 white or silver, so I doubt it can push 45Mb but upper 20s to low 30s is doable. Most of Garmin's stuff uses ARM-based SOCs anyway.

-Natively waterproof to IPX7
-1.4" color LCD with live preview
-WiFi and ANT+ capability so it can be controlled from damn near anything, including ANT+ devices that don't have wifi.
-Built in GPS which records with the video
-Barometric altimeter and accelerometer

It also has a few nifty things like internal lens correction. So while it does cost as much as a GoPro3 Black kit, it has things that are normally only found in really expensive datalogging units. I'd imagine it dumps a GPX track file that's synced up with the video, so it should be pretty easy to write a script or video editor plugin that would take the GPX file, pull in images from Google Maps, then overlay your final edit video with a real time minimap, elevation profile, and speed. I have some apps on my iPhone that do the same now, but the image stabilization on the iPhone is near useless on a motorcycle. And it certainly can be done with a standalone GPS and action cam, but then it's up to you to manually sync up the resulting files and data sources.

'course this all is kinda moot if the camera records crap video or is too buggy/cumbersome to be useful.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by kamikazekyle View Post
So while it does cost as much as a GoPro3 Black kit, it has things that are normally only found in really expensive datalogging units. I'd imagine it dumps a GPX track file that's synced up with the video, so it should be pretty easy to write a script or video editor plugin that would take the GPX file, pull in images from Google Maps, then overlay your final edit video with a real time minimap, elevation profile, and speed. I have some apps on my iPhone that do the same now, but the image stabilization on the iPhone is near useless on a motorcycle. And it certainly can be done with a standalone GPS and action cam, but then it's up to you to manually sync up the resulting files and data sources.
I have an iPhone app that can sync all the data of the iPhone over WiFi with the GoPro3 for racing (the video start/stop is even triggered over WiFi by the iPhone's GPS location) I've asked the developer to sync audio as well, because the iPhone records better audio then the GoPro (I overlay the audio myself, but it could be done over iCloud or WiFi) Not all GPS data loggers are one in the same, I use an external one because the iPhone GPS is not fast enough

I will never buy another Garmin map. OSM maps are better and constantly improving for free. I love my old 60CSx but if I was buying a new one now I would look at the Montana instead of this Zumo. I think Garmin has a lot of catching up to do so I hope to keep using my 60CSx until the new units have settled out. I'd like to see more integration with smartphones. Interesting times for technology I think
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:45 AM   #71
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Had a similar discussion with my wife on a trip recently. We got to talking about the dashboard gps and its likely extinct future.

For the average user (read: cager), the smartphone with maps loaded aboard on a dashmount will be the way to go. Car radio having bluetooth will take care of the audio, add a microphone, and your users will go with just one electronic device to keep track of. Proof of this is the digital camera market. For most, a simple pic with their smartphone will do, I haven't carried a camera in years myself.

So, if the theory is correct, then Garmin needs to look forward, and find a new home. Their aviation and pure marine sales should remain constant, but I suspect their outdoors sales with suffer along with the automotive. One possible revenue stream is in custom devices.

I'm not talking about unique units (the cost would be prohibitive), but in taking their existing hardware and software and allowing the customer to mate them together. How many of us have said that they'd love a 478 with a bigger screen and an SD card? They have marine choartplotters that can be just that, just give it to us without the marine surcharge. Or, how about a 2610 programming in a big screen?

We've all lamented the bazillion Nuvi choices (I've been in to GPS for over twenty years and I confuses that crap outta me, they seem all the same), and yet curse the lack of choice if you want it waterproof? IPX7=little screen or pay $2k for a marine unit.

The future of Garmin is unclear to me. Were I investing in tech, I wouldn't buy in the gps market. They've got to be sweating this, I wonder myself if the lifetime maps option on the wife's gps is gonna die with the company before the gps does.

I know that there are Garmin staff that are members here, and participate in an official capacity at times. We know that there's no way they'll speak to what I've written, but I hope that the 'build your own' option is one they're pursuing. I, for one, would pay the $800 price tag for a unit MY way. One built within their existing parts and software inventory. No need to re-invent the wheel, just do business differently to both fill a market need, and provide a revenue stream.

Random thoughts....
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:11 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Had a similar discussion with my wife on a trip recently. We got to talking about the dashboard gps and its likely extinct future.

For the average user (read: cager), the smartphone with maps loaded aboard on a dashmount will be the way to go.
The question of "device convergence" is always an interesting one.

Right now, phones are living in a blessed period, much like desktop PCs in the 90's, where users are migrating to a single computing device running multiple applications for their mobile computing needs. But the long term trend, as the costs of devices goes down and connectivity gets better, is for more and more computing devices being embedded into everything. So I think long term, we're going to see GPS in cars (and motorcycles eventually) become more of a standard feature rather than some expensive option. It will talk to one's handheld phone, but the phone won't be the standard navigational device while you're in the vehicle.

Drive a Tesla and see how the GPS works in this car. This is the future, not some tiny phone sitting in a rickety mount on the top of the dash.



What remains to be seen is whether Garmin will be a player in this embedded GPS vehicle market. They had the inside track a decade ago, but things are up for grabs now.

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Old 08-25-2013, 10:26 AM   #73
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We live in a free market society. It seems there has been a lot of time wasted complaining about price points. If I go into a store or on line and find something I like and want I simply decide if I think it is worth the money. If not I move on and find an alternative or decide I can do without. I don't spend one second feeling angry or frustrated about something I didn't buy because I thought it was too expensive.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:30 PM   #74
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The question of "device convergence" is always an interesting one.

Right now, phones are living in a blessed period, much like desktop PCs in the 90's, where users are migrating to a single computing device running multiple applications for their mobile computing needs. But the long term trend, as the costs of devices goes down and connectivity gets better, is for more and more computing devices being embedded into everything. So I think long term, we're going to see GPS in cars (and motorcycles eventually) become more of a standard feature rather than some expensive option. It will talk to one's handheld phone, but the phone won't be the standard navigational device while you're in the vehicle.

Drive a Tesla and see how the GPS works in this car. This is the future, not some tiny phone sitting in a rickety mount on the top of the dash.



What remains to be seen is whether Garmin will be a player in this embedded GPS vehicle market. They had the inside track a decade ago, but things are up for grabs now.

- Mark
I agree that MFD's are coming in cars, and will incorporate nav capabilities. I'd bet on it being subscription based though, similar to OnStar, but more in the model of 'annual licencing' a la Adobe and Microsoft's latest ventures in software marketing via a cloud-like interface.

But again, it requires a connection of some kind, and that's where I disagree with your statement that the smartphone is not going to have a prime spot in this regard. Until there's enough satellites up that can handle the bandwidth requirements to provide general access (In Canada, once you get 15 minutes away from the busiest highway in the country that runs past my place, forget about much cell service, and I live between the two busiest cities in the country. And before you say 'lack of population', I'll point south of the border at New England, the Appalachians, the mid-West, and the Western US states that have zip for coverage), then a device that holds it all onboard will be key.

Yes, you can have it in your Tesla. What happens when you hop in the wife's car? On your bike? Bicycle? Hiking? Hunting? All your data is back in the car, or in the cloud.

That's a big reason why I think the future is in what Roddenberry described back in the late 1960's: The tricorder, known currently as the smart phone. All you need, in the palm of your hand.

And I don't see how Garmin has much of place in that future. Their app is pretty craptastic, to be honest. It's like they want it to fail. Which under their current business model, might just be the truth.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:29 PM   #75
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That's a big reason why I think the future is in what Roddenberry described back in the late 1960's: The tricorder, known currently as the smart phone. All you need, in the palm of your hand.
It's coming in 2014. Most all new cars will have iOS 7 integration, which basically let's your iPhone (or any smartphone really) control your display via Airplay (WiFi like AppleTV) and integrate with steering wheel buttons etc

So really, the car/bike just needs a display and more sensors and buttons (temp, OBD, cameras) and your smartphone has more than enough processing power and the latest free maps... plus all your music/calender/contacts etc

So just put a mounted display on the motorbike with some integrated buttons and let it connect via WiFi.. no need for additional mounts or cables. Garmin Montana is trying to be like a smartphone but we don't need another one really
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