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Old 08-31-2013, 10:12 AM   #16
AceRph
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Originally Posted by davebig View Post
I find allot nicer ride by turning the damping down on my new Yacugars.I don't think one can have it both ways a bike that's capable on rough surfaces and one that rides like the sitting room couch.The handling in the corners doesn't just improve it's extraordinary.Have you seen a HP sidecar without a swaybar ? Camber controls are not cornering devices but do what you think is right, I'd bet even DMC would agree on that one.DB
DMC would agree. I don't seem to need it like before w/ the new shocks. The old shocks were toast. The GS is not a hot rod rig by any means.

One of the problems I've had is the hack wheel contacting the fender on left turns. Running the tilt control up would take care of some of the body roll & keep the fender off of the tire.



I've broken the front mounting bracket on the fender three or four times b/c of the wheel striking the fender.



Finally changed the fender to a trailer fender. My nephew cut the width down & put a heavier piece of steel on the back as a skirt/mounting surface.







And had a new, more substantial mounting bracket made.

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Old 08-31-2013, 02:58 PM   #17
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Duncan's right; Aces right... about the tilt control. Used it for thousands of miles.

Few of you or none ride the way I used to before I passed the rig to Duncan: SWMBO... ! My DMC rig was always fully loaded with the female of species. We might have ridden the likes of RedMenace, Mikepa, and Drone with their Panzerfaust adventures. I am NOT against swaybars IF placed correctly but NOT onto the swing arm of my Beemer! Proper shocking(Hyperpro or equivalent) with the bike and sidecar(h. duty Progressive or even 2 sets like Mikepa used on one of his Ueberhacks) will do wonders! Show me a German Sidecar manufacturer/Indep. shop over there that attaches a swaybar to a BMW's swingarm. The swingarm is already stressed to the hilt by the lateral forces of the sidecar plus it's occassional misaligned toe-in that I so often hear here.

cheers...
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Abenteuerfahrer View Post
Duncan's right; Aces right... about the tilt control. Used it for thousands of miles.

Few of you or none ride the way I used to before I passed the rig to Duncan: SWMBO... ! My DMC rig was always fully loaded with the female of species. We might have ridden the likes of RedMenace, Mikepa, and Drone with their Panzerfaust adventures. I am NOT against swaybars IF placed correctly but NOT onto the swing arm of my Beemer! Proper shocking(Hyperpro or equivalent) with the bike and sidecar(h. duty Progressive or even 2 sets like Mikepa used on one of his Ueberhacks) will do wonders! Show me a German Sidecar manufacturer/Indep. shop over there that attaches a swaybar to a BMW's swingarm. The swingarm is already stressed to the hilt by the lateral forces of the sidecar plus it's occassional misaligned toe-in that I so often hear here.

cheers...
So basically you are saying you wouldn't mount a anti-swaybar system on a Beemer??? Am I missing something about anti-swaybar systems??? If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar.

Could someone post up pics of how the Euro's are doing their anti-swaybar systems?
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:54 PM   #19
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" If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar". Correct! and would still serve it's purpose of alleviating some roll.

No, I am not saying that a swaybar doesn't belong on a Beemer, far from it, just not attached to it's swing arm. Swaybars can be directed to be mounted to the rear of the subframe. In all honesty I do not know how the Europeans attach their swaybars to their sidecars/bikes, but I am sure not to the BMW's swing arm. Have yet to see a German manufacturer of sidecars attach a swaybar to the swing arm of a BMW. Double swing arm of other bikes, YES... but not the single ones! Maybe someone can guide me there

cheers...

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Old 08-31-2013, 06:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Abenteuerfahrer View Post
" If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar". Correct! and would still serve it's purpose of alleviating some roll.

No, I am not saying that a swaybar doesn't belong on a Beemer, far from it, just not attached to it's swing arm. Swaybars can be directed to be mounted to the rear of the subframe. In all honesty I do not know how the Europeans attach their swaybars to their sidecars/bikes, but I am sure not to the BMW's swing arm. Have yet to see a German manufacturer of sidecars attach a swaybar to the swing arm of a BMW. Double swing arm of other bikes, YES... but not the single ones! Maybe someone can guide me there

cheers...
Wouldn't attaching to the subframe be the same as attaching to any part of the tub's mount? Wouldn't that make the anti-swaybar a simple torsion style spring with the effect the same as just having a stiffer spring on the tub's shock? Why go to all the trouble of the bar and attachment arms when you could just go with a stiffer spring?

I think we both agree that linked to the swing arm is the best, its just a matter of how to do it without compromising what we have to work with.

How much additional pressure put on the single sided arm would depend on the "rating" of the bar used. Couldn't a fairly light weight bar be used to lessen the sway but not completely remove it? I would be more than happy to get rid of 30% of my "monkey motion".

Thanks for the replies, I'm VERY interested in getting this all worked out in a way more of us can understand.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:38 PM   #21
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abenteuerfahrer View Post
" If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar". Correct! and would still serve it's purpose of alleviating some roll.

No, I am not saying that a swaybar doesn't belong on a Beemer, far from it, just not attached to it's swing arm. Swaybars can be directed to be mounted to the rear of the subframe. In all honesty I do not know how the Europeans attach their swaybars to their sidecars/bikes, but I am sure not to the BMW's swing arm. Have yet to see a German manufacturer of sidecars attach a swaybar to the swing arm of a BMW. Double swing arm of other bikes, YES... but not the single ones! Maybe someone can guide me there

cheers...
Elmer
I heard you where a chemist,are you a mechanical engineer also ? Do BMW swingarms have any history of failure ? If they don't, it would seem you may be fear mongering.Almost sounds like an HD owners rampant nationalism.
By now Claudes customers have 100's of thousands of miles on swing arm equipped bikes and no reports of a broken swing arm.BMW has pulled allot of crap anyway, poorly assembled final drive apparently un heat treated input shaft splines, power brakes that shut themselves down have come and gone and now Motorcycle Consumer news is rumored to have printed that major issues with BMW motorcycles in the 1st year has surppassed HD.
At this stage of my life I don't beleive BMW's engineering is unimpeachable but it would seem that all mfg companies bean counters have the final say.
As to who you've ridden with who cares ?
For all you I add spring to the chair to turn left inmates, it seems you have forgotten that you have succeeded in topping out the shock when you do that not really allowing it to do it's job any shock builder will insist on sag, I would guess to insure oil on both sides of the piston, I believe you guys are just pounding the shit out of things.
Ace if your shock and suspension is that sloppy that you've had to change fenders and mounts it's got to be way under sprung.What's with that ?
Strong Bad what Claude likes is a hollow torsion bar they are not overly stiff, if it where a solid bar I think Elmer's fears would have some merit.Once you've tried a bike with one you wouldn't be without one.
Below is a little rig that's been all over Mexico and Central America with a swaybar, it appears to have been really loaded, I believe it was on this trip he decided to develope a automotive wheel plan.Thanks Stroker
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:11 PM   #23
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Ace if your shock and suspension is that sloppy that you've had to change fenders and mounts it's got to be way under sprung.What's with that ?
You are absolutely right, Dave. The stock shock from DMC was even worse. I had the DMC guys change out the spring to the stiffest one they had when I was coming back from AK. It was better, but still too light. That shock blew out. I replaced it w/ the same thing because I couldn't swing the bucks for something better at the time. I've got a custom Wilbur coming in a few weeks. It'll be stiffer. Part of my problem with the handling was because the ESA units were shot. The dampening was gone. The new ESA Wilburs are fantastic. The dampening actually works and they're sporting stiffer than stock springs. The rig doesn't roll over like it did before. Flying the chair is much easier too because the suspension doesn't sag out when when the weight of the car transfers to the bike.

The fender was mounted too low to begin with. The skirt smacked the banjo bolt of the SC brake. The DMC guys trimmed the skirt, but the fender was still too low. There wasn't a way to raise it up w/o fiberglass work. I suck at that. The new fender is taller & clears the wheel better, but it still rubs occasionally. I had the new shock made a bit longer. We'll see.



When I mounted the car, the advice from DMC was to set the bike suspension on high & level the car w/ the tilt adjuster zeroed. So I did. I could reset the car higher w/ the TA extended to level the rig. That would do it. There's plenty of adjustment on the mounts. Now that I've got a new shock coming, I'm going to procrastinate a bit more & do it after mounting up the new shock.
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“We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer.” —”Extreme Behavior in Aspen,” February 3, 2003

"The State sees the spectre looming ahead of terrorism and anarchy, and this increases the risk of its over-reaction and a reduction in our freedom." - Stanley Kubrick
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:16 AM   #24
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Good Morning Amigos.. Happy Labor Day...

Great discussions, love this forum! Oh, no fear mongering from me, just that I don't like anything attached to the swing arm. Isn't practical offroad (too low and obstructive) where it should be removed then reattached when going back on pavement. Does it have a history of causing problems with the swing arm; we don't know! Do the lateral forces: sidecar; swaybar, etc, etc..also contribute to seal; crown gear problems in the final drive area? The new owner of my much missed rig (Duncan's now) added a swaybar before heading home. Within a few months his drive shaft went south. Coincidence ?, maybe....! I always meticulously (annually) maintained my drive shaft by removing it; inspecting it; lubricating its splines; etc. so I am suspicious that swaybars might have something to do? Yeah, I am an old chemist and not an engineer and have no proof that the swaybar indeed does contribute unneccessary additional stress to the swingarm...but common sense says it indeed does! For peace of mind I'd rather go the way of properly 'shocking' the Tug and Tub!

cheers...
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Abenteuerfahrer View Post
Good Morning Amigos.. Happy Labor Day...

Great discussions, love this forum! Oh, no fear mongering from me, just that I don't like anything attached to the swing arm. Isn't practical offroad (too low and obstructive) where it should be removed then reattached when going back on pavement. Does it have a history of causing problems with the swing arm; we don't know! Do the lateral forces: sidecar; swaybar, etc, etc..also contribute to seal; crown gear problems in the final drive area? The new owner of my much missed rig (Duncan's now) added a swaybar before heading home. Within a few months his drive shaft went south. Coincidence ?, maybe....! I always meticulously (annually) maintained my drive shaft by removing it; inspecting it; lubricating its splines; etc. so I am suspicious that swaybars might have something to do? Yeah, I am an old chemist and not an engineer and have no proof that the swaybar indeed does contribute unneccessary additional stress to the swingarm...but common sense says it indeed does! For peace of mind I'd rather go the way of properly 'shocking' the Tug and Tub!

cheers...

I fully agree that haveing the proper spring and shock setup is most important.
I do not see how a sway bar will add to any lateral stresses on the swingarm, the force should be in the vertical plane.
I have a hard time attributing a driveshaft failure to a device that potentially limits the motion of the swingarm.
BMW's final drrive failures are mostly attributed to poor assembly technique, not properly measuring and shimming the bearings.
And while I'm here, lets note that swaybars and camber control devices are almost totally seperate devices in their assigned functions.
I'm neither an engineer nor a chemist, just an old turdherder making dirty water clean. I do have an extensive shade tree education....
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:05 AM   #26
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I fully agree that haveing the proper spring and shock setup is most important.
I do not see how a sway bar will add to any lateral stresses on the swingarm, the force should be in the vertical plane.
I have a hard time attributing a driveshaft failure to a device that potentially limits the motion of the swingarm.
BMW's final drrive failures are mostly attributed to poor assembly technique, not properly measuring and shimming the bearings.
And while I'm here, lets note that swaybars and camber control devices are almost totally seperate devices in their assigned functions.
I'm neither an engineer nor a chemist, just an old turdherder making dirty water clean. I do have an extensive shade tree education....
Elmer
Thank you for your reply, I now think much more of you.The bar attaches to the FD of course I know that's part of the swingarm assembly.
There no history of the ALuminum casting or forging failing Beemerboneyard can't give them away.As for the driveshafts have a history, I talked to a BMW only recycler junker or whatever who told me he can't keep used driveshafts in stock.I thought Drone was neurotic replacing his but apparently not.Anton Largaider says allot of final drive failures are assembly issues, perhaps drive shafts also.
I just do not think topping up the sidecar shock electro mechanically on left hand sweepers is a good idea if one wants to keep the oil in it.Nor do I think that changing BMW's fork angle is good for the telelever front either.
Regarding German engineering it's excellent but perhaps driven toward luxury refinements, multiple engine management programs, electro mechanical shock control. Didn't we all start motorcycling because it was a simpler way to move thru nature ?
The world looks exactly the same no matter how bourgeois ones rig is be it Ural, KLR or the latest BMW gs .
I agree with Bob the terhurder.I barely made it out of high school, I did diesels in the USN, I hang out in a excellent structural welder, electronic tech shop in the winter.DB
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #27
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Elmer
Thank you for your reply, I now think much more of you.The bar attaches to the FD of course I know that's part of the swingarm assembly.
There no history of the ALuminum casting or forging failing Beemerboneyard can't give them away.As for the driveshafts have a history, I talked to a BMW only recycler junker or whatever who told me he can't keep used driveshafts in stock.I thought Drone was neurotic replacing his but apparently not.Anton Largaider says allot of final drive failures are assembly issues, perhaps drive shafts also.
I just do not think topping up the sidecar shock electro mechanically on left hand sweepers is a good idea if one wants to keep the oil in it.Nor do I think that changing BMW's fork angle is good for the telelever front either.
Regarding German engineering it's excellent but perhaps driven toward luxury refinements, multiple engine management programs, electro mechanical shock control. Didn't we all start motorcycling because it was a simpler way to move thru nature ?
The world looks exactly the same no matter how bourgeois ones rig is be it Ural, KLR or the latest BMW gs .
I agree with Bob the terhurder.I barely made it out of high school, I did diesels in the USN, I hang out in a excellent structural welder, electronic tech shop in the winter.DB
Hola DB...

Glad we understand each other but I can be stubborn as you have seen with my constant: Nein, Nein-verboten!

I, of course always valued your opinion as well as others and have learned a lot which provided me with a great set-up for my rig; totally problem free during my gnarly travels because of our KISS principle! Yes, we sheared the tubs axle in AK. Woe if we had a swaybar..! You see sometimes I am my worst enemy. Claude said to me; "We agree to disagree!"

cheers...
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:11 PM   #28
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the times

Very interesting discussions here...it seems that in the few years I was away from riding, that sidecar outfits are undergoing the same kind of technical (r)evolution that occured when cars went to automatic transmissions and luxury features years ago.
Now they are much bigger and faster, more complex, and have amazing rider's features, compared to, say, in 2000 when the EML was about the only "engineered" turn-key outfit.
Pretty amazing.
It looks like there are two general lines of thought, one is just finding an old bike and fabricating mounts and adding a sidecar, and the other making a big, powerful "go-anywhere" type of rig.
I sure like reading about all these tech advances and builder's ideas.
When I put mine together in 1982, I was already a member of the Antique Motorcycle club, and thought in terms of what a very sporty sidecar would have looked like in the 60s, when 16" kneelers were Grand Prix bikes. Off-roading sidecars was for old harley guys at the Jack Pine, or the few trials outfits based on Ossas and BSA 250s.
Any way I sure appreciate the tech thoughts on this good forum.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:37 PM   #29
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I've been very happy with the handling of my homemade rig but as I'm always riding solo I can see where a swaybar could help me be even faster on paved roads, though I do get a kick hearing others explain how I was out on top of the car in right handers.

It took reading all this thread and others for it to sink in that a swaybar would work just the same with my leading swingarm as with one trailing. Next thing is to build my self one.
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:01 PM   #30
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Okay I do not understand the big issue here that is slamming swaybars. Hopefully everyone has read the link provided by Davebig which is from the HPSIdecars site written by good friend Bill Ballou. There are videos there also to show what they can do. As far as I know there have been four of us in this country who have regularly installed antiswaybar. We all do them differently to a point and they all seem to work okay.
Swaybars are actually torsion bars. They increase their spring rate by twisting. The swaybar itself is linked to the swing arms of both suspensions via arms (torsion arms). All the swaybar does, in a nutshell, is link the sidecar suspension to the bike’s rear suspensions with a torsion bar. When one side of the rig goes into ‘bump’ or compresses it’s spring it activates the torsion arm which in turn twists the swaybar and transfers spring rate in a sense to the other side of the machine. The bars can be stiff or soft and the action of the arm can be dictated by it’s length. A stiff bar with long arms will act similar to a soft bar with short arms. Pretty simple really as the short arms will move more with the suspension actions of the machine and twist up the bar itself more. The long armed stiffer bars will arrive and the same point as far as useable spring rate action with less movement. Not rocket science here . Spring rate action does increase with more twisting action. We prefer a stiffer bar with long arms as it allows better control over linkage design so as to create a good action through the arc of the swaybar arm and the movement of the swingarm on the machine.,
The system we use runs the bar itself through a tube with a bushing on each end. This creates a situation so the torsion bar itself has to twist and alleviates any unwanted up or down flexing of the bar . So all suspension movement activates the swaybar and is not wasted by vertical deflection. The action of the swaybar can be mild or wild depending on length of bar, diameter of bar and the length of the arms connecting it to the swingarm of the bike and sidecar.
In Bill Ballou’s article he give a hypothetical example of a way stiff swaybar. Too stiff would mean the whole rear of the machine would hobby horse up and down as a unit which is by far not the desirable action.

Note that the link between the swaybar arm and the swingarms of the machine is critical in various ways. Mounting points for the link need to be placed so the link works in a positive fashion and is not just moving around with minimal transfer of movement to the connection points. We want to swaybar to work early and through out it’s action in a linear way.
I could ramble on here for a long time as we have tried various methods of design for swaybars and have installed them on many different outfits both on and off road machines. There are variables to contend with when designing a swaybar although almost any simple design with work out fair as long as the links are paces well and move the bar in a twisting fashion. If building your own go soft to begin with either by using long arms and a stiff bar or shorter arms and a sift bar. The stiff bar is what we prefer for dual sport adventure type rigs for reasons stated previously.
Note that we have had our outfits WITH SWAYBARS do some very serious expeditions with no issues. Yes, they could have disconnected the swaybars but opted not to. We are not talking about a Sunday afternoon toot on fire roads but world type tours. Some on their own and some under the guidance of Globe Riders and the like.

One couple went to the artic circle on a new outfit with no issues at all. Elmer you may remember this as it was at the same time you all wen t up there and had all the spindle breakage issues on your rig that Duncan gas now. Another couple went to south America on an extended trip with no issues. Matt and Kristin went to Terra Del Fuego with their ‘Big Boi’ outfit, which is a huge machine, and are now prepping for a south african adventure. Marty and his friend did an Alaska trip followed by a trip to terra del fuego and now have their machine in a container heading to south Africa. There Is also Mat and Kristen who may be embarking on another extended global trip in the near future.
As a side note .... Interesting enough in light of some of the discussion here all of these folks above are running progressive shocks on the sidecar with no issues other than normal wear. No double shocks required . No electric tilt adjustor although we can do such a thing. Note also that with the use of a swaybar a reduced spring rate is also possible in most cases. Note on these things.....electric tilt is nice feature. It is really not meant to use as a cornering device but as a compensation device for road crown variations. weight in sidecar and other factors such as side winds and so on. It IS a nice feature! We always recommend those who purchase the Hannigan sidecars from us to get that as their number one option. Used properly and built properly they have a good track record of reliability. They really should not be setup so the shock tops out with the force of the actuator behind it. If this is the case then a positive stop to prevent this may be a good feature. Topping out the shock can cause shock issues.

Other things that can cause shock issues is the shock angle placement which can put the shaft into a place where side loads are acting on it that it was not designed for. Seals and such can suffer when this happens. Another thing as long as I am rambling here.....Spring rates on shock discussions sometimes do not hold true across the board as many think. Why? The spring rate required is dependent upon how the shock is mounted. For example: A shock that is mounted laying down flatter than another one will need more spring rate than one that is mounted more vertical or has both eyes in line with the arc of the swingarm...yadda yadda. So, how often are we really comparing apples to apples? Dunno.

As far as a swaybar hookup being a hindrance to rear drive workings it is not founded at all. Not a point of contention on my end just a fact. There was no small amount of discussion when the single sided swingarms in general came out as far as sidecar usage goes. EML even manufactured a steel replacement but they even got away from it after a while. The system we use is time proven under some extreme conditions . If I have reservations about it we would not be doing it.

So..no debate necessary or desired just some of my views based on a fair amount of experience. So....Choose your own opinion and hope for the best. Oh and try to base your decision on what has and has not worked not on hearsay....lol.
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