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Old 08-29-2013, 10:41 AM   #16
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
I want to say an `07 as this person bought a new gasser every year. Even though Dale has had to warranty something most years. ( His `08 Raga I replaced the frame.) But Dale has always taken care of all issues.
That makes sense. That was about the model year I heard the piece could break off.

The elipical tube frame (or was it an early round-tube frame) did have some issues. I had an older 2008 frame on my Econo and liked it for being compact between the calves. I bang into the seat plastic a lot on my Raga.

All design is a tradeoff.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:35 AM   #17
laser17
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I dont think there was a "dented" gear year. I think there was a bad pawl heat treat "batch" around 07-08 as I recall. I broke my 08 pawl, but It was my fault. As you may know, There has been several changes to the kick start shaft, stop and pawl to help reduce the likely hood of gear clash that causes chips. The 11 has all the updates sans the new replaceable shift shaft design. (real nice feature) Regardless, its still possible to chip the pawl or idler gear if one doesn't use the proper kicking technique. One slap is all it takes. The chips on the idler typically end up behind the clutch hub and into the primary/helical gear. A variety of crazy noises can be emitted, but they typically have a very "metallic" buzz to them. I have always replaced the idler if Ive found damage, and will lightly file any burrs, but know several GG riders who just ride them and the noise eventually goes away with wear. I would be too uncomfortable with that approach, but some are just fine with it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #18
lineaway
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I`ve heard strange noises coming out of the pro`s over the years. The one I`m talking about had a tick, tick, just like a rod starting to knock.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:14 PM   #19
StuInFH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
I avoid brand worship or brand bashing. Regarding the Pro transmission, there is no huge and obvious problem.
Good to hear, I suspected as much but didn't come across the right bike at the right time. Thanks much for the comprehensive answer. (which I expected after reading your rear shock rebuild response) ;-)

Re brand worship, I try to get different colors, as it makes it easier to convince my wife that each is very different and that I NEED the next one. :-) cheers
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:53 PM   #20
lineaway
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We jokingly give gassers the label `Pro-blems` for assorted issues. But when everything is right the power is better and the bike is very light! Hard combo to beat if you have to hop all day.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:06 AM   #21
2whlrcr
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I just ride mine.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:57 AM   #22
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 971
Here is the weight difference, aluminum versus magnesium center cased GasGas Pro engines (plus a few other details).

Pro engines with aluminum cases are + 1kg over the magnesium versions. At close to 2.2 pounds total, you'd think it would not be much, but I can feel the difference hefting the case halves. The cases alone account for about 1/5th the weight difference I found between my 2010 Econo 280 and my 2011 Raga 300.

The cases appear interchangeable and replaceable between the two with one exception: I found the reed block cavity from the Econo fits only the slightly smaller 250cc integrated rubber reed block. The modular 280-300cc reed block comes up short by a few millimeters from seating. It would take very little grinding to make the larger block fit.

A close look shows it's not the same molds with a material change. The aluminum and magnesium cases are from different molds and possibly also from different suppliers. The aluminum cases are thicker in the walls. I'd have thought the opposite. The magnesium cases have the pockets in front of the crank mostly filled in, for added strength there. Overall I think the aluminum cases are going to be stiffer as a stressed frame member. Whether that means anything practically speaking is unknown.






motobene screwed with this post 08-30-2013 at 10:02 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:07 AM   #23
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
I dont think there was a "dented" gear year. I think there was a bad pawl heat treat "batch" around 07-08 as I recall. I broke my 08 pawl, but It was my fault. As you may know, There has been several changes to the kick start shaft, stop and pawl to help reduce the likely hood of gear clash that causes chips. The 11 has all the updates sans the new replaceable shift shaft design. (real nice feature) Regardless, its still possible to chip the pawl or idler gear if one doesn't use the proper kicking technique. One slap is all it takes. The chips on the idler typically end up behind the clutch hub and into the primary/helical gear. A variety of crazy noises can be emitted, but they typically have a very "metallic" buzz to them. I have always replaced the idler if Ive found damage, and will lightly file any burrs, but know several GG riders who just ride them and the noise eventually goes away with wear. I would be too uncomfortable with that approach, but some are just fine with it.
ONE slap kick? Interesting. This makes me think. I so-call slap kick every time but don't have problems. Maybe there's more than one type of 'slap kick?'

If a slap kick defined as not first engaging the lever before you kick, that is what I do... always. I find the 280 and 300 2-stroke bikes too hard to start otherwise, with repeat kicks required with the engage-first technique. I want that sucker to light off, first time, every time!

So what do I do? I kick primarily with my ass. Leg extension is secondary. As a result the process is slower, as more mass is involved, but I still come at the lever with some speed before the gears engage. Engagement feels clean, and there is no harsh pop.

I suppose if I'm doing it wrong I'll eventually have a problem. I'll let you all know if I do.

motobene screwed with this post 08-30-2013 at 08:37 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:16 AM   #24
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 971
And now for the crank comparison. Not much to say here, as the part numbers are the same, 250-300cc for a bunch of years. Some subtleties: The Date code 1103 crank from the 300 was a scotch tighter in the big end of the rod in terms of the rod drop speed. The fit in the bearings of date code 1010 crank from the Econo was a little tight in the bearing races, requiring it be knocked out of the right bearing harder.



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Old 08-30-2013, 07:24 AM   #25
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 971
I've provided info and pix on the cases... the weight difference, and also crank similarities. Now lets look at the cases and tranny guts in side-by-side model differences.

There little to no functional difference between the 2010 Econo 280 and 2011 Raga 300. You will see lots of little detail differences, like O-rings, bearing seal/shield types, coating subtleties, differences in casting parting lines... parts sourced from different manufacturers, etc.

If you are well versed in transmission design, note how the GasGas engineers integrated the functions. The heat treated steel shift drum (the Econo's looks like hard coated aluminum but is not) borrows the shift shaft for its rotational axis. The shift forks look like aluminum as well, but they are steel.

The 44/6 transmission design is very space compact. It's not easy to visualize how this thing works. The rotary shift drum and shift forks (3 on the Pro) are easy to understand because that's common. But how this thing shifts is weird. Credit Rising Sun for this graphic:



Note the one photo is repeated and not accurate as to the correct positions of the sliding collars in each gear. The photo only shows the path taken from motor to ground in each gear. Note 1st and 4th take a zig-zag path, which is why that shift into and out of 4th can sometimes feel a bit odd. The use of sliding collars that engage dogs on one side or the other, instead of gears sliding and directly engaging dogs is I think what was patented, but I haven't confirmed it:

Here's the Econo bottom end with the Raga bottom end in the background:



The left cases, inside and out. Note there is more post-casting machining on the aluminum cases. The magnesium case casting process, whatever that is, can control the geometry better because more surfaces are what engineers call 'net shape.' I.e., not requiring an additional process:





The right cases - with the transmission, from several views:









(Update: The clutch was stuck on because the stop washer for the clutch hub was left off by someone in a previous disassembly/reassembly. I found the washer incorrectly under the primary gear on the crank shaft).

motobene screwed with this post 09-07-2013 at 07:58 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:41 AM   #26
lineaway
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Very nice pics. Chris what two stoke oil do you use?
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:18 AM   #27
motobene OP
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Regarding kick start reliability issues, your comments prompted me to investigate deeper, thank you.

I stated earlier that I use a machine-aware or 'educated' slap kick technique to start 2-strokes with hefty compression. I have not had problems, as in any failures, but I recall over the last year and a half a few sloppy kicks resulting in a skip-engagement with a pop. Ouch.

I just looked closely at the Econo and Raga kick start gears... the gear that swings into and engages the idler gear. Is this the 'pawl' some of you referred to? Both bike's gears show what I'd expect, some beating up of the leading edges of the first engaging tooth or two.

Below is a close-up photo of the Econo's kick start gear, engaged with the idler. Note the damaged edge on the first-engaging edge of the first-engaging tooth, an the tiny mashed spot on the side the second tooth nearer the root. I looked more closely with a machinist's loupe. What I saw was not chipping, but small regions of plastic deformation.

Base alloy selection and heat treat processes with gears that engage like this is a compromise between wear resistance (high hardness with potential for rupture) and denting (lower hardness with potential for plastic deformation). The sweet zone between the two is narrow, and it is better to err slightly on the side of soft, as denting is preferable to chipping. Super hard chips can float off and cause problems. I suspect some of the Pro kickstart gear in the past were on the hard side and chipped instead of dented.



Since my gears aren't chipped I'm not going to worry about them. And yes, I'll take a little more care when kicking to avoid the infrequent sloppy kick.

motobene screwed with this post 08-30-2013 at 09:45 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:27 AM   #28
laser17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
ONE slap kick? Interesting. This makes me think. I so-call slap kick every time but don't have problems. Maybe there's more than one type of 'slap kick?'

If a slap kick defined as not first engaging the lever before you kick, that is what I do... always. I find the 280 and 300 2-stroke bikes too hard to start otherwise, with repeat kicks required with the engage-first technique. I want that sucker to light off, first time, every time!

So what do I do? I kick primarily with my ass. Leg extension is secondary. As a result the process is slower, as more mass is involved, but I still come at the lever with some speed before the gears engage. Engagement feels clean, and there is no harsh pop.

I suppose if I'm doing it wrong I'll eventually have a problem. I'll let you all know if I do.
Chris - If you dont engage the pawl and feel resistance, your KS pawl days are numbers IMHO. There have been several threads about this on here and thumpertalk (2ply,Sting ect) that outline what various kick methods people use. I find leverage is key to obtain the force needed to spin up 300's. The one pawl I broke was when I was very tired and the KS side was on a very steep uphill side of the bike. Instead of pulling the bike around so I was above the KS, I just jumped up and wacked it. After that I was a believer of what others had told me.

As always - Great job on the photos. I appreciate you sharing your findings with us knuckleheads.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:33 AM   #29
laser17
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The quarter gear on the KS shaft is what I refer to as the KS Pawl. There are typically backside idler gear chips as well that cant be seen from the front. Either one of these chipped surfaces are the source of potential debris.

FWIW: I put a raga reed block on my 09 std 250 to test a keihin vs VHST Dellorto carb and it fit OK w/o any binding. I did have a fairly thick gasket in between the block and case, so maybe if I had dry fit it w/o the gasket it would have not fit all the way in.

laser17 screwed with this post 08-30-2013 at 09:41 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:51 AM   #30
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Very nice pics. Chris what two stoke oil do you use?
I use something easily available at the auto parts store, Lucas semi-synthetic 2-stroke oil, 75-80:1, fuel is half racing and half E10 regular. Works fine but does leave a little more carbon and varnish behind than the
Raga's full synthetic, brand unknown, as it came to me. But that stuff, whatever it was, stained the white plastic and stickers on the bike.
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