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Old 08-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #31
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Chris - If you dont engage the pawl and feel resistance, your KS pawl days are numbers IMHO. There have been several threads about this on here and thumpertalk (2ply,Sting ect) that outline what various kick methods people use. I find leverage is key to obtain the force needed to spin up 300's. The one pawl I broke was when I was very tired and the KS side was on a very steep uphill side of the bike. Instead of pulling the bike around so I was above the KS, I just jumped up and wacked it. After that I was a believer of what others had told me.

As always - Great job on the photos. I appreciate you sharing your findings with us knuckleheads.
Thanks. You've got my attention. I'll more careful!

You all aren't knuckleheads. You're trials riders
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:12 AM   #32
Gordy
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This thread is awesome! I don't have a GG anymore, but lots of good info here for all of us! Thanks for taking the time to detail it all.
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:28 AM   #33
Sting32
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
This thread is awesome! I don't have a GG anymore, but lots of good info here for all of us! Thanks for taking the time to detail it all.
I can sell you one just like motobeen has been working on (without the noises). Yes his is the 2011 Raga 300, $5500 I moved up to the 2012, dad got his 2013 last week. if I get time to clean it up sooner than later, Ill post pictures.

I wish I could sell the 11 & 12, get me the 13 but I believe the "factory" versions (formerly raga) are spoken for.
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:52 AM   #34
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Thanks, but I'm good.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:10 AM   #35
motobene OP
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
I can sell you one just like motobeen has been working on (without the noises). Yes his is the 2011 Raga 300, $5500 I moved up to the 2012, dad got his 2013 last week. if I get time to clean it up sooner than later, Ill post pictures.

I wish I could sell the 11 & 12, get me the 13 but I believe the "factory" versions (formerly raga) are spoken for.
I wish I could add riders fast enough to reel in another bike. Love to have a beautiful yellow Sherco 300 as well. I've added another rider here to my budding little club (he gets my 2010 ) and I'm working hard to turn another toward the light.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:20 AM   #36
motobene OP
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Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
The quarter gear on the KS shaft is what I refer to as the KS Pawl. There are typically backside idler gear chips as well that cant be seen from the front. Either one of these chipped surfaces are the source of potential debris.

FWIW: I put a raga reed block on my 09 std 250 to test a keihin vs VHST Dellorto carb and it fit OK w/o any binding. I did have a fairly thick gasket in between the block and case, so maybe if I had dry fit it w/o the gasket it would have not fit all the way in.
I checked the Idler on both bikes. No chips.

It would take very little grinding to get the Raga reed block to fit the aluminum cases on the `10 Econo. Perhaps what made these Econo cases was their being pre `09 versions where the casting was smaller in that area to fit only the 250 integrated rubber reed block, and that only by milling little areas (see the above pix) to allow the reed screws to clear. Much better to just open it up at the casting process, and I suspect they did just that with a design revision, such that your `09 could fit any style reed.

What difference did the reed and Keihin make? I suspect the 250 reed, the Dell'Orto carb, and the older-style exhaust was what made the Econo with the Raga's 300 top end run about the same as the Raga with the 280 top end when I did the top-end swap experiment. Both bikes use the same Kokusan ignition and flywheel, and the flywheels are the same part number.

motobene screwed with this post 09-01-2013 at 05:26 AM
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:30 AM   #37
laser17
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Good news on the chips.

On my 09 250, the stock PHBL and stock reed setup provide adequate power, but felt lumpy down low and flat up top. The 28mm Keihin provides a much smoother low end with an electric midrange and noticeable improvement in overrun at the top. I wanted alittle more snap down low, so I went with the 26mm VHST. Very smooth down low like the keihin, but better throttle response. Comparable midrange and less top end. I liked the VHST but it was a bit finicky - the pilot atomizer holes were very small and would clog up about every couple weeks. I would clean the pilot and immediately notice a better response. One thing I never figured out was why my 09 250 never ran quite as good as my 08 with the VHST. I ran a 33 pilot on the 08, but on the 09 the leanest I could run was 36. The PHBL was happy at 40 on both bikes. (The VHST has a much more sophisticated pilot circuit and intake trumpet) The 08 was the sweetest running 250 I ever rode. I dont like PHBL bikes as much as the keihins on GG's but I have to say that the PHBL is pretty much hassel free, so can understand why GG uses them on the STD bikes.

I think you are right on the mark with the new pipe and air box providing a less restrictive front/back end. I hear the new factory editions bikes are real rippers. They have a new airbox and a new jug with larger transfer ports. New advance curve as well. Haven't ridden one yet - but maybe this week.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:04 AM   #38
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Good news on the chips.

I went with the 26mm VHST. Very smooth down low like the keihin, but better throttle response. Comparable midrange and less top end. I liked the VHST but it was a bit finicky - the pilot atomizer holes were very small and would clog up about every couple weeks.

I think you are right on the mark with the new pipe and air box providing a less restrictive front/back end. I hear the new factory editions bikes are real rippers. They have a new airbox and a new jug with larger transfer ports. New advance curve as well. Haven't ridden one yet - but maybe this week.
Didn't know there was a new Dell'Orto. Investigated it. Saw a red one too. Interesting. I just know the Mikuni VM26, PHBL Dell'Orto and PWK28 for trials.

I don't think 'less restrictive' as is often assumed is what is making the pipe and airbox more effective. I think it has to do more with other characteristics, like volume related to resonance and other mysteries. Most air boxes in terms of restrictiveness, even with the small filters when heavily oiled have over capacity for our needs.

Interesting comment on the new Replica. Sounds like there may be some changes to fundamental parts like the cylinder. I think Sting said they are sold out in the US?
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:17 AM   #39
motobene OP
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Another update. You may note in my pix above that the clutch is still on the Raga but not TXT motor right center case. That's because it was stuck on. On the Econo TXT motor it slipped off with no sticking after removing the dinky 5mm screw that retains it. I patiently pried the thing off yesterday.

The clutch was stuck because it was assembling a tad bit more inboard, I think hitting a limit in one spline. The previous owner was in this deep for some reason and missed a reassembly detail. The shim/washer that normally goes on the transmission shaft inboard of the two clutch hub needle bearings and spacer clip - what the clutch stops against when assembled - was missing. It was instead inboard of the primary gear on the crank, where it obviously didn't fit because it was bigger than the crank shaft and gear diameter and was just running loose. The washer was also right over the right main bearing that I found is loose. Related? probably not, as it could still oil from the primary side.

When I'm not sure where something goes I go to the part list document. I've saved this doc for every GasGas. Aside from showing a seal on the wrong side of a main bearing, the docs are accurate.

Clutch off, I was able to inspect the Raga's kick start idler gear. It is fine.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:59 AM   #40
laser17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Didn't know there was a new Dell'Orto. Investigated it. Saw a red one too. Interesting. I just know the Mikuni VM26, PHBL Dell'Orto and PWK28 for trials.

I don't think 'less restrictive' as is often assumed is what is making the pipe and airbox more effective. I think it has to do more with other characteristics, like volume related to resonance and other mysteries. Most air boxes in terms of restrictiveness, even with the small filters when heavily oiled have over capacity for our needs.

Interesting comment on the new Replica. Sounds like there may be some changes to fundamental parts like the cylinder. I think Sting said they are sold out in the US?
The VHST is actually kinda old. Came on the 02 Pro when 1st introduced. (thats why the PHBL needs a crappy rubber air boot adapter) The VHST got a bad rap for not working right due to some faulty and undersized fuel needle valves and bad jetting recommendations. Anyone interested in one should read about how to sort them from Senior Blanco. (Threads on Trials Central - but fairly old).

In terms of restrictiveness, I hear you, but maintain my opinion that the new air boxes and especially mid boxes are less restrictive and flow better at high revs. Im no flow engineer and don't solve Reynolds equations in my head like some, but just comparing like for like, you would be hard pressed not to think they are less restrictive. There probably IS alot more to it than that, but thats about where I check out.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:06 AM   #41
laser17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Another update. You may note in my pix above that the clutch is still on the Raga but not TXT motor right center case. That's because it was stuck on. On the Econo TXT motor it slipped off with no sticking after removing the dinky 5mm screw that retains it. I patiently pried the thing off yesterday.

The clutch was stuck because it was assembling a tad bit more inboard, I think hitting a limit in one spline. The previous owner was in this deep for some reason and missed a reassembly detail. The shim/washer that normally goes on the transmission shaft inboard of the two clutch hub needle bearings and spacer clip - what the clutch stops against when assembled - was missing. It was instead inboard of the primary gear on the crank, where it obviously didn't fit because it was bigger than the crank shaft and gear diameter and was just running loose. The washer was also right over the right main bearing that I found is loose. Related? probably not, as it could still oil from the primary side.

When I'm not sure where something goes I go to the part list document. I've saved this doc for every GasGas. Aside from showing a seal on the wrong side of a main bearing, the docs are accurate.

Clutch off, I was able to inspect the Raga's kick start idler gear. It is fine.
Ive been hearing about more and more tight clutches. Seems like a trend - glad you found the smoking gun in your case.

Did you ever sort out the loose fit on the crank bearing? Was the case machined on the large side of spec? Im very curious about this. I 1st hear that the reason they stopped using the Mg cases was due to some spun bearings and then I hear the factory Editions had some bearing failures. (not by a great source - just an online thread) I wonder if something else is going on. Some Gorilla damaging the mating surfaces during assembly? Bad CNC work? Nothing?
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:24 AM   #42
motobene OP
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I can now report some solid results.

Had a long-time friends from Norman, OK down. Bill the moto animal and his beautiful photographer wife Susan. Bill's a great mechanic so for some man fun we hung out in the man cave and reassembled the Econo. I fit a right-side brake for normal people, as this bike is being sold. I don't want to sell it, but there are wife politics to consider.

This Econo is one of my favorite rides ever (the new owner will be one lucky fellow). At the end of its time with me it served as a comparison ride and technical educational platform and test bed. As compensation for delaying delivery to the new owner, it got a full maintenance work over. It works like new.

Into the 2010 Econo went the Raga's crank, flywheel, primary gear, and clutch. The result? Absolutely no difference. The Econo runs and works exactly the same as before, as in super smooth and sweet.

So what does that say? It says my Raga's problem with vibration was not of the first order harmonic... not due to a poorly balanced crank or flywheel as I assumed. I also already proved it is not as a result of the second order harmonic... piston/rod (reciprocating) mass. I found the 300 Raga's piston to be lighter than the 280's. This leaves the obvious, the discovery of slightly sloppy main bearings in the Raga due to hard use and wear.. and maybe some grit from the failure of something else in the past (still unknown). Was the demise of that bearing influenced by misplacement of the clutch basket shim over the main bearing and blocking lube access? Probably not. The bearing was either not made right or it wore out somehow. What would be astounding to me is how a little slop in a main bearing that otherwise looks good and runs smooth could cause such a noticeable amount of vibration and noise.

Next will be the reassembly of the Raga. If the Raga with new main bearing ends up smooth and quiet like the Econo, mystery completely solved. If it vibrates a little more than the Econo still, the only variables left will be the lower stiffness of the magnesium cases and lower bike mass.

The Econo's test ride this morning was fun, despite the heat. Thanks to Susan for taking pix, as I'm usually behind the lens, not in front of it. That's Bill and wife Claire in the background of the first pic. It was a month since rode last so I was very happy.




motobene screwed with this post 09-07-2013 at 08:07 AM
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #43
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
I can now report some solid results.

Had a long-time friends from Norman, OK down. Bill the moto animal and his beautiful photographer wife Susan. Bill's a great mechanic so for some man fun we hung out in the man cave and reassembled the Econo. I fit a right-side brake for normal people, as this bike is being sold. I don't want to sell it, but there are wife politics to consider.

This Econo is one of my favorite rides ever (the new owner will be one lucky fellow). At the end of its time with me it served as a comparison ride and technical educational platform and test bed. As compensation for delaying delivery to the new owner, it got a full maintenance work over. It works like new.

Into the 2010 Econo went the Raga's crank, flywheel, primary gear, and clutch. The result? Absolutely no difference. The Econo runs and works exactly the same as before, as in super smooth and sweet.

So what does that say? It says my Raga's problem with vibration was not of the first order harmonic... not due to a poorly balanced crank or flywheel as I assumed. I also already proved it is not as a result of the second order harmonic... piston (reciprocating) mass. I found the 300 Raga's piston to be lighter than the 280's. This leaves the obvious, the discovery of a sloppy right main bearing in the Raga. Was the demise of that bearing influenced by the previous owner's misplacement of the clutch basket shim over the main bearing and blocking lube access? Probably not. The bearing was either not made right or it wore out somehow. What would be astounding to me is how a little slop in a main bearing that otherwise looks good and runs smooth could cause such a noticeable amount of vibration and noise.

Next will be the reassembly of the Raga. If the Raga with new main bearing ends up smooth and quiet like the Econo, mystery completely solved. If it vibrates a little more than the Econo still, the only variables left will be the lower stiffness of the magnesium cases and lower bike mass.

The Econo's test ride this morning was fun, despite the heat. Thanks to Susan for taking pix, as I'm usually behind the lens, not in front of it. That's Bill and wife Claire in the background of the first pic. It was a month since rode last so I was very happy.


Chris, I am just going to drop off my bike, the one just like yours, the 11... to you to go through,
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:31 AM   #44
motobene OP
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Chris, I am just going to drop off my bike, the one just like yours, the 11... to you to go through,
If I could make some money at this, I'd have fun and be able to buy more bikes... like yours
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:04 AM   #45
Twin-shocker
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Flat slide Dell Ortos seem very difficult (and expensive!) to set up properly, but once they are set up, work much better than round slide types.

A very good upgrade for any bike fitted with round slide carb, is a flat slide OKO, which are very easy and cheap to set up, and can be found on Ebay for $49!

The 30mm version tends to provide a bit of extra power at the very top of the rev range, and the 24mm seems to do a good job of softening the power of a bike, if its a bit much for the rider.
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