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Old 09-03-2013, 05:13 AM   #1
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Inside the Reiger Shock

First a little background, then a request for your help. Here I intend to document what's inside the Dutch-made Reiger shock.

The intensively documented thread "Inside the GasGas Pro Cases..." is coming to a conclusion, almost. You'll see there many photos and the result of mixing Raga and Econo parts. You'll see the Econo ride report. I'll soon be doing a ride report on the Raga when it's back together.

BACKGROUND

During Econo assembly my friend Bill had some slack time, so I sent him off to do the maintenance on the Raga's suspension links. Nertz! More money and time. The dogbone bearings chewed through the sidewalls of the races, despite there being an obvious maintenance effort in the past (one seal was left out and some washers were present that the factory did not include). This bike was represented to me as having "low hours." I'm finding that was not true. It'll certainly be a great ride when I'm done!

I suspect it's time to refresh the shock oil. Problem is I don't know exactly what's inside Reigers, specifically the Raga model with the 'puffed head' and compression adjuster. This adjuster, unlike most compression adjusters historically, actually does something significant. Thus there is some mystery stuff above the puffed head, which I suspect is a larger diameter reservoir to overcome the problem in trials shocks of too-low internal oil volume.

Reiger is tight with tech info like exploded views and cross sections. I haven't found anything in my search but pumping marketing videos, which are interesting, but don't provide much detail. I only need just enough detail to start into it.

REQUEST

Have any of you taken the Raga shock apart or know someone who has, or know where I can get more tech info? Does the shock thread apart, or is it held together by a clip under pressure? Is that a classic piston reservoir? A bladder reservoir? What type Nitrogen recharge needle do they use and what is the pressure? I could probably derive the reservoir pressure through reservoir piston and shaft diameters and shaft extension force, but friction of the reservoir piston and shaft seal constrains the 'static' extension force. Has anyone ever put a Schrader valve in one of these?

Here are the Reiger GasGas shocks and the specific Raga shock I have on the 2011:



These are all basically the same design format with the exception that some Race models lack the 2nd adjuster for compression.

motobene screwed with this post 09-03-2013 at 05:27 AM
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:02 AM   #2
laser17
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I was told Randy Lewis in CA. was supposedly familiar with them. (Good guy for Sachs shock servicing/re valving)

You do realize low hours is a relative term right? Sounds like your taking it all in stride, good for you.

laser17 screwed with this post 09-03-2013 at 08:48 AM
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:41 AM   #3
motobene OP
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
I was told Randy Lewis in CA. was supposedly familiar with them. (Good guy for Sachs shock servicing/re valving)

You do realize low hours is a relative term right? Sounds like your taking it all in stride, good for you.
Oh yes. It was my fault. I assumed too much and didn't ask enough questions.

Gosh CA is a big state. How do I get ahold of Randy Lewis?

It's not my intent to send the shock anywhere, but rather get into it myself so I can publish the results.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:51 AM   #4
laser17
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PM sent.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:44 AM   #5
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
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So here is my mystery with the Reiger shock explained in a photo. The mystery that prevents me from diving in without a little more knowledge about the build.

I suspect a thread-in seal head because it looks like the cap over it is threaded, because it has holes for a spanner wrench.



No shock can be worked on until gas pressure is let off. I'm finding some mystery about where the gas separating piston is. Sure, it seems it SHOULD be in the larger diameter part at the top, but the only two places, covered by small fasteners, where you can charge the shock with nitrogen - and thus dump the charge, are at the BOTTOM of the large diameter. Typically these are above, on the gas side of the piston.

If the large diameter does not contain the separating piston (or a separating bladder)... if a piston is in the shock body or smaller diameter portion, the location of the two fasteners makes more sense. But what the heck, then, is inside that larger diameter? Just gas volume? And how, then, would be the compression adjuster work? It has to act on the oil.

Something is different about this shock.
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Old 09-07-2013, 01:54 AM   #6
Twin-shocker
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If the shock runs body up, are you sure there is a separating piston? Seems to me there is good reason for trials shocks to incorporate the emulsion system, as this means larger volume of oil, and better performance.
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:15 AM   #7
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
If the shock runs body up, are you sure there is a separating piston? Seems to me there is good reason for trials shocks to incorporate the emulsion system, as this means larger volume of oil, and better performance.
I have heard the latest Replica model runs the Reiger 'upside down', and yes, I'm pretty sure this is not an emulsion shock. There is a compression adjuster up there in the shock. It won't be running in and out of the oil.

Shock makers think of type 1 or emulsion shocks as inferior. Reiger sells a top-end product. 99% chance it's going to be DeCarbon style, that is, having gas separation.
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:16 AM   #8
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
PM sent.
Laser, I called the guy and left a message. No call back. I'll try again.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:58 PM   #9
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Laser, I called the guy and left a message. No call back. I'll try again.
Motobene,

2011 & 2012 have the dampening adjuster up by the gas tank, aka Tank of shock up in the air, (upside down)...

But the 2013 has the same shock mounted tank side down (right side up) if that helps. So, well, I mean "same shock" as in to me it looks same. We just really just minutes ago, went with same # of clicks he'd ended up on, with the 2012, feels similar for us "know nothings" to tell, who knows what they might have changed? Which adjustment you end up at though, is even easy for me to tell, I like the way we've done it. in fact I had monkey'd with the 2011 at Sipapu, and it was all out of whack, and I believe the compression dampening is less in the 11 than the 12 at same setting by a smidge? but hell, I dont know. Come to MATT's 2 day I have all 3 years (11, 12 & 13) at the event...

Quick, someone buy the 11 & 12 I can go find me a 13, (BIG GRIN). Anyone know what Ossa is using for rear shock? Ill go look.

Oh, BTW Bene,
What has me puzzled now is, Right front forks only (2012 & 2013) has (assume rebound?) adjuster anymore? I HAD adjusted those on the 2011, since it has both Comp and Rebound, full in on compression, almost all out on rebound I think it was, but no matching adjuster on newer forks, far as I can tell.

Sting32 screwed with this post 09-07-2013 at 03:05 PM
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:23 PM   #10
laser17
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Tech Forks.

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Old 09-08-2013, 05:38 AM   #11
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Motobene,

2011 & 2012 have the dampening adjuster up by the gas tank, aka Tank of shock up in the air, (upside down)...

But the 2013 has the same shock mounted tank side down (right side up) if that helps. So, well, I mean "same shock" as in to me it looks same. We just really just minutes ago, went with same # of clicks he'd ended up on, with the 2012, feels similar for us "know nothings" to tell, who knows what they might have changed? Which adjustment you end up at though, is even easy for me to tell, I like the way we've done it. in fact I had monkey'd with the 2011 at Sipapu, and it was all out of whack, and I believe the compression dampening is less in the 11 than the 12 at same setting by a smidge? but hell, I dont know. Come to MATT's 2 day I have all 3 years (11, 12 & 13) at the event...

Quick, someone buy the 11 & 12 I can go find me a 13, (BIG GRIN). Anyone know what Ossa is using for rear shock? Ill go look.

Oh, BTW Bene,
What has me puzzled now is, Right front forks only (2012 & 2013) has (assume rebound?) adjuster anymore? I HAD adjusted those on the 2011, since it has both Comp and Rebound, full in on compression, almost all out on rebound I think it was, but no matching adjuster on newer forks, far as I can tell.
Hey who is Matt and where is Matt's 2-day? If it's this weekend, no way. I'm plumb tuckered by ranch work in this infernal heat, and today I hope to put some hours in on the Raga rebuild (everything is getting gone through). Even if I had a bike, I'd not ride an even in this heat. That would wipe me for days.

When I rode the 2013 Sherco I liked the Tech forks. They seemed very fast but controlled. One reason they may be coming on line is they could possibly be cheaper for GasGas and Sherco to purchase than the Zokes. They seem a simpler design.

I intend to reassemble the 2011 Raga with the shock flipped over, like the `13. It won't make any difference to the shock which way it is oriented, but body down it should run a bit cooler because the aluminum body will then be down below the pocket next to the muffler. The eye spacers aren't the same, so to flip the shock one must pop out the purple anodized aluminum eye spacers (from the inside dividing line out) and switch the positions. Both eyes and bearings are the same, but the spacers are 0.894" at the frame (top) end and 1.037" at the (bottom) rising rate linkage end... on the `11 Raga and newer short-dog bone rising rate linkage. Good excuse to lube the shock eye bearings anyway. If typical they will be spherical bearings and the seals will be O-rings.

The Reiger on the 2012 Raga and 2013 Replica may be a little different internally than a 2011. I rode Michael's `12 and he said it had something that will hold the shock in compression briefly on really hard hits deep into the travel. Hydraulically I could see how that would be done. I can also imagine why... to create more 'stick' and less bounce back when slamming something really hard.

Sting, is this effect real and something you can tell going from the `11 to the `12? Is it present on the `13?

motobene screwed with this post 09-08-2013 at 06:08 AM
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:42 AM   #12
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Tech Forks.
Thanks for that, Sir Laser. Someone needs to do an Insider the Tech Fork thread. Rebound in the right. In the left, the one fork spring and a compression adjuster in the bottom which is out of range for the light fork oil and thus closed off. So really, you just have a rebound adjuster, the important one.

To add a bit here, the compression adjuster gets put in the leg with the fork spring because when you have a fork with separate rebound and compression legs, the compression function is always in the leg with the spring. This reduces lateral torques between the legs under big hits because the spring and compression resistance act inside the same leg. The rebound extension resistance is a much lower order magnitude force, so it doesn't matter where it goes. But obviously they put it in the other leg where there is room to do so.

motobene screwed with this post 09-08-2013 at 06:10 AM
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:35 PM   #13
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Thanks for that, Sir Laser. Someone needs to do an Insider the Tech Fork thread. Rebound in the right. In the left, the one fork spring and a compression adjuster in the bottom which is out of range for the light fork oil and thus closed off. So really, you just have a rebound adjuster, the important one.

To add a bit here, the compression adjuster gets put in the leg with the fork spring because when you have a fork with separate rebound and compression legs, the compression function is always in the leg with the spring. This reduces lateral torques between the legs under big hits because the spring and compression resistance act inside the same leg. The rebound extension resistance is a much lower order magnitude force, so it doesn't matter where it goes. But obviously they put it in the other leg where there is room to do so.
I was describing positions of the shock in the bike, more than anything, in case you thought we should try our older bikes, with the shock oriented like the "NEW" bike, that is all. the Compression dampener cannot be reached with the supplied bat, that they give you when you buy the gasgas in 2013 though... but oh well, used a screwdriver to flick the adjuster around, to where dad liked it.

OH, and the Matt, is M.A.T.T.: aka Kansas city's Missouri's rounds 5&6? of the CRTC regionals, and will be held on the 14th & 15th of this month... so NEXT weekend. I don't/wont mind if you stay home and get too tired.. I can eat your share of the supper saturday night, lol!!!

thanks Laser!!! all weekend I was busy, and the DVD that Reiger shipped wouldn't play in the DVD at the shop, and of course I am a man, resistant to read manuals, though I will ask around on forums, go figure. thanks for posting that. I should have looked in the book, it was 104 (pretty freaking hot) all weekend in the shop I swear it was hotter. so my attention span, was not going to have me looking in no manual, lol.. was a nice day for a wet bike ride though!

these new ones seem "immitation" marzoochi, now 2 off? I really liked the Marzoochi but see no problem with the newer style I guess. I WISH the 13 was mine, I got to ride it 2 times now. I hate to ride it too much and like it, because I wont get this one for probably more than a year down the road, who knows...

the 12 & 13 seem the same fork tanks (aka carbon fiber guards from Marzhoochi era purchase) need a couple layers of duct tape, strategically located and hidden by the covers, around the tanks, to hold them on. and the adjusters are the same, I guess the 13 is aluminum forks, where my 12 is steel forks? wonder if that gold "slicker" coating is cheaper, than the black? must be, lol. Bike cost more than last year, so they aren't saving any money for 'us' buyers, apparently, lol...


Sting32 screwed with this post 09-08-2013 at 08:51 PM
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:21 AM   #14
Twin-shocker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
I have heard the latest Replica model runs the Reiger 'upside down', and yes, I'm pretty sure this is not an emulsion shock. There is a compression adjuster up there in the shock. It won't be running in and out of the oil.

Shock makers think of type 1 or emulsion shocks as inferior. Reiger sells a top-end product. 99% chance it's going to be DeCarbon style, that is, having gas separation.

In regard to trials shocks I get the feeling that the increased oil capacity provided by an emulsion shock, is going to be of greater benefit than gas separation?
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:37 PM   #15
laser17
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More Tech info - The guts of it all.
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