ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Trials
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-01-2013, 04:47 AM   #16
Gordy
Team Listo
 
Gordy's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: NM
Oddometer: 21,219
I know that this is a clutch thread but you couldn't make me go back to a GasGas.
Any one that designs and sells a bike that the tire wears a hole in the muffler on a regular basis doesn't get my $$. In all fairness, GG has fixed that now and they just melt the ends out of them!
Gordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 06:52 AM   #17
Sting32
Trials Evangelist
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Minneapolis, Ks
Oddometer: 1,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
I know that this is a clutch thread but you couldn't make me go back to a GasGas.
Any one that designs and sells a bike that the tire wears a hole in the muffler on a regular basis doesn't get my $$. In all fairness, GG has fixed that now and they just melt the ends out of them!

The design cause the rear tire to wear out the muffler? I say it wasn't so, someone fell off the bike bent the muffler, end of story.

Now the plastic tipped muffler, yeah is pisses me off too! But like my favorite Foot pegs, for a while I can take my aluminum tip replacement one, with me bike to bike I guess. I have had my pegs since the 2006 pro... fwiw...
Sting32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 07:20 AM   #18
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Dabill and Fajardo had a new clutch design at the world rounds. Something about sliding on pins and black magic. Ron was wrenching, weather he has this setup only he would know.
I'm just remembering Ron said something about grooving or modifying the plates with a twinkle in his eye.

Ron and I were close together going round the loop at Peru. He said it was hour 3 on the bike (sure was pretty with those blue rims). He certainly rode it well doing non-comp in my class.

When I rode Blue Rims (as I said before) I sure liked the handling. Very planted yet tight turning. I noticed doing a small drop off with a hard landing that the rear end felt firmer than my 2011 Reiger-Raga... as in less plush. It felt more like my Econo with the Ohlins (elliptical-tube frame with the previous linkage). My brain has been pondering recently the role of linkage rising rate and lateral stability. On the level of more plush versus more 'planted.' Then again, I may be pursuing phantoms

As for the clutch issue, I noticed one rider on a newer Beta idling in neutral just before entering the section. There was a call of 'Rider!' and he snicked into first with a pop of gear engagement, lever pulled fully back to fingers. The bike pulled forward a little with clutch drag and tweetie-purring noises like Aprillia Climbers used to make. Ron's bike didn't do that... for whatever reason.

motobene screwed with this post 10-01-2013 at 08:10 AM
motobene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 08:55 AM   #19
Gordy
Team Listo
 
Gordy's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: NM
Oddometer: 21,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
The design cause the rear tire to wear out the muffler? I say it wasn't so, someone fell off the bike bent the muffler, end of story.
It is well known to space out the muffler at the midpoint mount to try and keep it away from the tire. The least little fall to the right WILL bend it into the tire. Heaven forbid that a trials bike falls over.
Only the GG riders can be caught pulling on their mufflers to bend them back. Yes.....it's that cheesey. You can bend it with your hands. That is the end of the story.
Don't get me started on the kickstarter or the tranny or the .
Gordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 03:34 PM   #20
DrKayak OP
Retro Rider
 
DrKayak's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Oddometer: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
.....he snicked into first with a pop of gear engagement, lever pulled fully back to fingers. The bike pulled forward a little with clutch drag and tweetie-purring noises like Aprillia Climbers used to make. Ron's bike didn't do that... for whatever reason.
That's what mine does.. that tweetie-purring noises is how I can tell the clutch is dragging. I can sit at the start of a section in first but the clutch drag pulls down the idle speed to were it's very low.

The new muffler design on the Evo is great for sure. My Techno had bad wear on the back of the muffler. Love the Evo kick stand too. As often as you stop to scout a section a good stand is a plus..
__________________
2011 690 Enduro R
2013 Beta Evo
07 450 EXC
04 FZ1
DrKayak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 07:59 AM   #21
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKayak View Post
That's what mine does.. that tweetie-purring noises is how I can tell the clutch is dragging. I can sit at the start of a section in first but the clutch drag pulls down the idle speed to were it's very low.

The new muffler design on the Evo is great for sure. My Techno had bad wear on the back of the muffler. Love the Evo kick stand too. As often as you stop to scout a section a good stand is a plus..
What makes tweetie sing is a technical mystery yet unsolved, by me anyway. Some engineer somewhere in the world may know.

I used to think it was spring imbalance and the pressure plate lifting with slight cocking, but it's probably some complex tribological intricacy of the microscopic world, involving plate surface characteristics and engine pulse resonances and such.

The GasGas clutch is an odd bird with few plates and the Belleville washer spring and small diameter slave cylinder and short clutch throw. There is no tweetie tendency and only a little drag. I do keep the idle rpm up so that idle stays normal with the clutch pulled in and bike stopped, but thankfully the bike does not pull me forward, which would drive me nuts.

That tweetie can be killed off is encouraging. But exactly how? The subtle, one-variable-at-a-time approach? That takes time. The sledge hammer approach of a kit with groups of parts swapped? Probably the best way. It would be nice to know what is latest and greatest... like what the factory and guys like Ron Lee (Tulsa, OK area Beta dealer) are exactly doing.
motobene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 09:10 AM   #22
Gordy
Team Listo
 
Gordy's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: NM
Oddometer: 21,219
I can't link this from the LewisSport page but if you go here;

http://www.lewisportusa.com/manuals.htm

and all the way to the bottom right, there is a nice write up on the Beta Clutch Mod with pics.

You have to download it.
Gordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 09:15 AM   #23
DrKayak OP
Retro Rider
 
DrKayak's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Oddometer: 693
That " tweetie sing" was a source of much concern for me as a trials noob buying an expensive bike. My Techno did not do it, my KTM does not.. but the Rev3 and Evo did. I made it a mission to listen to other bikes at the comps.. a lot of bikes have a clutch noise, not just Betas.

I'm good with dismissing the noise as normal. I will not accept the clutch drag as normal. I will get if fixed or the bike gets gone.
__________________
2011 690 Enduro R
2013 Beta Evo
07 450 EXC
04 FZ1
DrKayak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 09:51 AM   #24
DrKayak OP
Retro Rider
 
DrKayak's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Oddometer: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
I can't link this from the LewisSport page but if you go here;

http://www.lewisportusa.com/manuals.htm

and all the way to the bottom right, there is a nice write up on the Beta Clutch Mod with pics.

You have to download it.
I will give this a try tonight on the current oily plates. Phase 2 would be to order new plates and clean them up before intall.

thanks...
__________________
2011 690 Enduro R
2013 Beta Evo
07 450 EXC
04 FZ1
DrKayak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 09:55 AM   #25
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 798
I talked to Ron Lee this weekend about his Beta 300 Factory clutch mods. he said all he did was round off the edges of the plates, where they slide in the hub and basket, and he drilled holes in the inner clutch hub to get more oil inside the assembly. As for what changes the latest 300 Factory model has over previous models, I don't know.

I rode his bike again while he rode my Fantic. Nice Beta. Still think Beta stability with also turning sharp is tops. The clutch was a bit fast-engaging for me so I asked what oil he was using. Can't remember if it was Spectro, but he said it was a very light oil, explaining the faster engagement. not 4RT fast, but if I released the lever faster it was a good bump forward.

The pull was pretty easy. Just a touch harder than my GasGas but very close. And zero tweetie noises or drag forward.

motobene screwed with this post 10-10-2013 at 07:39 PM
motobene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 06:00 AM   #26
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 798
I added the below to the de-evil clutch thread and it is germane here. All oils, whether they are labeled 'motor' or 'transmission', or 'suspension' behave similarly. Clutch behavior and viscosity are linked whether it is in the hydraulic master cylinder and line or in the transmission. Viscosity and temperature matter when you start tweaking clutches by tranny fluid and brake fluid:

Below is a suspension fluid chart in Centistokes. The longer bars are the viscosity at 40 degrees C, and the shorter bars are at 100 degrees C. Thicker oils tend to have more change in viscosity with temperature. Some oils resist changes in viscosity with temperature better. Those are known as High Viscosity Index or HVI oils. Typically they are the synthetics.

The longer line is very hot summer temperatures. The short lines are from water boiling temperature, which won't happen in anything but a shock being super cross a long moto. Ride a trial at 5 degrees C and you can see how much the oil viscosity will matter, so if you want to tune a clutch it's a dynamic process. What worked in summer to de evil the clutch will re evil it to too slow when it's very cold.

But it's so easy to tweak this. Simply suck or paper towel out all the reservoir oil and then refill and open the bleeder screw and let the reservoir level fall to almost hitting the orifice and refill. Voila! New-behaving clutch!

The chart also show just how much difference changes in transmission oil viscosity will make. If you have a persnickety clutch, it's a thinking man's game.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9eL...it?usp=sharing

motobene screwed with this post 10-10-2013 at 07:31 PM
motobene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 12:27 PM   #27
DrKayak OP
Retro Rider
 
DrKayak's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Oddometer: 693
I did the documented Beta clutch friction plate cleanup/mod last week. It fixed the clutch drag issue 100%. No problems pulling the cutch in with one finger till it hits your other fingers and shifting. No need to pull the clutch in till it hits the grip.

I did a 30 miles trail ride Saturday. Nothing to complain about. Have not tried any real trials work on it yet as to how fast it engages, doubt that changed any.

The famous Rubicon Trail ---

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drkayak...7636272707853/

Best granite I have ever riden...

The guy on the Sherco on the ride had removed half his clutch springs..
__________________
2011 690 Enduro R
2013 Beta Evo
07 450 EXC
04 FZ1

DrKayak screwed with this post 10-07-2013 at 12:47 PM
DrKayak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #28
Gordy
Team Listo
 
Gordy's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: NM
Oddometer: 21,219
Winning!!
Gordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 07:39 PM   #29
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKayak View Post
The guy on the Sherco on the ride had removed half his clutch springs..
That worked absolute wonders on a KLX330. But I made the 'mistake' of posting that as a solution on a KLX forum. It brought out a cloud of 'experts' who told me I was surely nuts and the bike would self destruct. Going on 4 years later, those four clutch springs are still holding things together nicely, and that's with the added cojones of the bigger cylinder.

The intelligence of trials riders and this forum are happily much higher.
motobene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 08:50 AM   #30
StuInFH
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Central CA
Oddometer: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKayak View Post
I did the documented Beta clutch friction plate cleanup/mod last week. It fixed the clutch drag issue 100%. No problems pulling the cutch in with one finger till it hits your other fingers and shifting. No need to pull the clutch in till it hits the grip.

I did a 30 miles trail ride Saturday. Nothing to complain about. Have not tried any real trials work on it yet as to how fast it engages, doubt that changed any.

The famous Rubicon Trail ---

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drkayak...7636272707853/

Best granite I have ever riden...

The guy on the Sherco on the ride had removed half his clutch springs..
Correction for anyone searching and hitting this, I run 4 of the 6 springs, not half.
StuInFH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014