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Old 11-01-2013, 09:13 AM   #31
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Still waiting for more reports back on other folks that have removed springs (other than StuInFH on his Sherco and KrAzy on his 4RT.

How many springs doth a Beta have?
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:26 AM   #32
laser17
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Clear and easy to understand Clutch setup tips for your Beta.

Video
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:37 PM   #33
lineaway
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http://www.betamotor.jp/support/cluch-ajust.htm
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/B...Fproduct%2F248

Thanks took awhile, but I always have looked for these shims!
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:51 PM   #34
lineaway
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Lazer, several years ago on my son`s techno I needed these shims. Too bad not a Beta part number. Nice to know my head was in the right direction for this adjustment. Thanks again.
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:32 AM   #35
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Clear and easy to understand Clutch setup tips for your Beta.

Video
Awesome vid! Beta is strong in Japan. Nice to see riders and attendees and willingness to spend money on their sport, as shown by the slick video.

Aha! A 6-spring, as the Japanese babe says, "kadutchina.' You can also hear "beahding" and "spaceah" in her flow. I rode with a Beta rider this weekend who had pulsing clutch control and drag issues that would have been much improved taking out 2 of the 6 springs. I'll offer to do that for him next time.

The subject of the video is bogus, however, and based on incorrect assumptions about how the clutch disengages.

They show a standard 0.5mm spacer on the thrust bearing stack, then the 'magical fix' of optional 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3mm shims to add on top. The mechanic pushes down against the slave cylinder to push the slave piston back in its bore, which forces fluid back into the clutch master cylinder reservoir. Voila! You see the added slack as he hold force against it.

Then they imply that fine spacer adjustments matter, as though lift is a hard mechanical adjustment. It is not. It's a self-correcting floating position by the slave cylinder piston. The tiny amount of the additional spacers is dwarfed by slave cylinder hydraulic float. Pumping up the clutch will reset the slave to near zero slack independent of the spacers.

The only benefit adding spacers have is on a bike where the slave cylinder piston is limiting out in its bore before full lift on the clutch lift plate is achieved. In that case a gross single adjustment of another 0.5mm spacer (or two) would do. Beta provided ample slave cylinder stack-up height and lift in the example bike. Did you notice full lift on the plate before they started? Well beyond that needed to release the clutch? At the end it was the same with the added shims . You could remove almost all the slack in the slave with shims, but the lift will be unaffected as that is a function of the volume displacement of the master cylinder and how much lever pull and master cylinder piston axial displacement you set.

motobene screwed with this post 11-05-2013 at 07:48 AM
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:40 PM   #36
Gordy
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Bene, do you have any idea why some clutches have a certain order that the plates go in (when there are 2 different thickness or type of friction plates)?

It seems as though the lift, and separation of the plates is all that matters to get the clutch pack to start slipping and I can't see how it makes any difference in what order they go in.
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Old 11-05-2013, 06:11 PM   #37
lineaway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Awesome vid! Beta is strong in Japan. Nice to see riders and attendees and willingness to spend money on their sport, as shown by the slick video.

Aha! A 6-spring, as the Japanese babe says, "kadutchina.' You can also hear "beahding" and "spaceah" in her flow. I rode with a Beta rider this weekend who had pulsing clutch control and drag issues that would have been much improved taking out 2 of the 6 springs. I'll offer to do that for him next time.

The subject of the video is bogus, however, and based on incorrect assumptions about how the clutch disengages.

They show a standard 0.5mm spacer on the thrust bearing stack, then the 'magical fix' of optional 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3mm shims to add on top. The mechanic pushes down against the slave cylinder to push the slave piston back in its bore, which forces fluid back into the clutch master cylinder reservoir. Voila! You see the added slack as he hold force against it.

Then they imply that fine spacer adjustments matter, as though lift is a hard mechanical adjustment. It is not. It's a self-correcting floating position by the slave cylinder piston. The tiny amount of the additional spacers is dwarfed by slave cylinder hydraulic float. Pumping up the clutch will reset the slave to near zero slack independent of the spacers.

The only benefit adding spacers have is on a bike where the slave cylinder piston is limiting out in its bore before full lift on the clutch lift plate is achieved. In that case a gross single adjustment of another 0.5mm spacer (or two) would do. Beta provided ample slave cylinder stack-up height and lift in the example bike. Did you notice full lift on the plate before they started? Well beyond that needed to release the clutch? At the end it was the same with the added shims . You could remove almost all the slack in the slave with shims, but the lift will be unaffected as that is a function of the volume displacement of the master cylinder and how much lever pull and master cylinder piston axial displacement you set.
Bene, I love your posts. The Japanese have crazy hard sections. All of them ride like Fujigas. A clutch missing two springs would never make it through the first loop. ( In fact it would get someone hurt) Beta has always shown this adjustment, but no way to correct it. Finally seen it done.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:33 AM   #38
motobene
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Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post


Bene, do you have any idea why some clutches have a certain order that the plates go in (when there are 2 different thickness or type of friction plates)?

It seems as though the lift, and separation of the plates is all that matters to get the clutch pack to start slipping and I can't see how it makes any difference in what order they go in.
I can't answer that exactly, but I can speculate. Perhaps the clutch pack would tend to separate in milliseconds starting from the lift plate down, or in the case of the 4RT, from the backwards lift plate out.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:51 AM   #39
motobene
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Bene, I love your posts. The Japanese have crazy hard sections. All of them ride like Fujigas. A clutch missing two springs would never make it through the first loop. ( In fact it would get someone hurt) Beta has always shown this adjustment, but no way to correct it. Finally seen it done.
Thanks for the Kudos, lineaway.

You wouldn't be the first to put your mind in jail with assumptions, but

- Well everyone knows the bike won't survive the first loop

- If you ride with two less clutch springs you will get hurt

Wow! And this is based on you actually doing the mod and having a sustained test period? You and a whole number of others are a five minute mod away from knowing.

Still waiting...
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:28 AM   #40
lineaway
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Last bike that I removed two springs from was my lowly Cota 200. Last spring I had to put them back in when the sections became harder. (Which made the clutch very hard to deal with.) There is nothing wrong with making a bike better for the average riders needs. But hitting a large wall minus two springs can cause a huge problem, let alone a massive hill climb.
I also played for years on my ty350. It was very strange the relation between flywheel weight and clutch plate life had in common. I was working at the local Yamaha shop. I had access to the lathe and a well stocked parts dept.(No shop is well stocked anymore) Which meant I could play with all kinds of spring lengths and rates. So no, my head is not stuck in a square box. That is why I enjoy reading the posts, of course we all have opinions!
My favorite one in the clutch spring removal is on the Sherco. That bike has been the hands down lightest clutch for years. Why, I always ask?
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:09 AM   #41
motobene
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Last bike that I removed two springs from was my lowly Cota 200. Last spring I had to put them back in when the sections became harder. (Which made the clutch very hard to deal with.) There is nothing wrong with making a bike better for the average riders needs. But hitting a large wall minus two springs can cause a huge problem, let alone a massive hill climb.
I also played for years on my ty350. It was very strange the relation between flywheel weight and clutch plate life had in common. I was working at the local Yamaha shop. I had access to the lathe and a well stocked parts dept.(No shop is well stocked anymore) Which meant I could play with all kinds of spring lengths and rates. So no, my head is not stuck in a square box. That is why I enjoy reading the posts, of course we all have opinions!
My favorite one in the clutch spring removal is on the Sherco. That bike has been the hands down lightest clutch for years. Why, I always ask?
Lineaway, I think you agree that less pull, better quality disengagement/engagement, and less drag help the average rider. My apologies for implying you were fear mongering separate from direct experience. I am not the least motivated to suggest technical tweaks that will break bike or body, so implying that will happen has my rapt attention.

So given your direct experience, please be more specific. "Hard to deal with" isn't specific, and CAN have some "huge problem" is... well, ~

I get your point about higher skill riders, but humans are analog devices. Abusiveness does not correlate so tightly with skill. Many high-skill riders are very machine aware and won't be out killing themselves by burning a clutch to a crisp then doing a splatter wall. And clutches anywhere near sprung correctly don't digitally go to zero toque resistance when loaded. Unless a rider is super machine unaware, a slipping clutch will be felt and he or she or their aware friends will know and deal with it.

The technical issue itself is also analog, and not about number of springs but about net clutch clamping force with respect to a very wide number of variables. Taking out two springs is just a simple way to learn if you are in a more optimal range for your bike and application, or not. Nothing better than educating, direct experience.

I don't act out of fear regarding technical things, and if anyone reading this is fearful about the 10-minute mod, don't do it, simple as that!
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:52 AM   #42
laser17
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My dad made light belville springs for the GG for years. They really made a huge difference on the older bikes, and then in 06 GG followed his lead and reduced the spring K by 20% and eliminated the big need for them, although there was still a benefit to the smaller bikes. (The thinking here was a 250 could get away with a even lighter spring than a 300)

On my 250 - I could get my super light spring (spec'd for a 125) to slip on the road in a tall gear, but never in a section. People were always surprised at how light it was. I had a expert rider try it and he didnt feel any slip, but the engagement was way too slow for him. I liked it that way - super progressive, but slow as mud. Probably the least drag on a GG as well. (With the blue smurf oil)

The 1st year he made them, I got REALLY fast at switching clutch springs as I was testing the various thicknesses. As MotoB said before, the thickness of the spring has a 4th order effect, so you could really feel the difference of a couple thou in thickness. There was a real sweet spot of about 10% less force than the 06 spring - much more than that, and you could slip it with the blue stuff. Throw in ATF-F and it was OK down to 20%.

Unfortunately, the guy who made them (a friend of mine from HS) died and we couldn't find the tooling he was using to make them. He pressed them flat before machining them and maintained a flatness spec tighter than the OEM incoming springs. He also left a small full thickness collar at the ID. So they are no longer. Was a fun project though.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:27 PM   #43
lineaway
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Bene, I replied with a long post that got zapped. So long story short version. Had a mechanic that I worked with. We argued over clutch adjustment and mods. Two years later he became our state champ. He was our first rider that could splatter off flat ground and made it look easy. So nothing wrong with making your bike better for the level that you ride at. But if you want to be a top rider, the way it comes from the factory is probably the way it should be ridden.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:29 AM   #44
StuInFH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
There is nothing wrong with making a bike better for the average riders needs. But hitting a large wall minus two springs can cause a huge problem, let alone a massive hill climb.

My favorite one in the clutch spring removal is on the Sherco. That bike has been the hands down lightest clutch for years. Why, I always ask?
I have to totally agree with you here and will be putting my 2 springs back into my Sherco clutch. Personal experience got me hurt bad.

During a 40 mile ride I climbed a longer hill climb than found in any trials section around here, Cadillac Hill on the Rubicon, and I don't think I even used the clutch more than a couple times (during shifting), as momentum in 3rd and 4th was working great on that long, steep rock pile. I detected no slipping, but the next day my calves were really HURTING!

Must have been those 2 missing springs.

just teasing, enjoying the back and forth. learning a lot here, keep it up
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #45
lineaway
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Now I agree that was funny. The only time my calves ever hurt was riding a two day in Pampa , Texas. The only obstacle were air logs. Flat, grassy ground and two or more logs in every section!
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