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Old 09-29-2013, 08:21 PM   #16
JTucker
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It all comes down to what they know they can sell. I saw at least a couple hundred bikes while out riding today. Of those maybe a dozen were something other than a cruiser or bagger.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:55 PM   #17
danketchpel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTucker View Post
It all comes down to what they know they can sell. I saw at least a couple hundred bikes while out riding today. Of those maybe a dozen were something other than a cruiser or bagger.
I hear ya, I simply can not fathom how popular cruiser/baggers/dressers are and "most" wear the HD badge. During our road trip to Colorado earlier this summer easiely 75% of the bikes we saw on the road were HD. I'm cool with people liking them and all, but where are all the other buyers? Am I a 1%'er?

I can understand manufacturers building what sells, makes good biz sense to me. So is the problem we don't get offered the "other" bikes sold around the world because they in fact don't sell here, or are the companies just afraid they won't sell?
I think there is some reality in both.

I think we will see if the ADV market blossoms after the few have offered up some bikes. I do see that Super Teneres are sitting on the sales floor with "test ride me" signs on them, fairly non-typical for Japanese bikes for sure. ~2 yrs ago you had to put down $500 on a blind bet.

BMW has proven they sell if they get the mix right. Moto Guzzi is selling most all of the Stelvios they bring in. I'm not sure how Triumph is doing with their Tigers & Explorers.

I did my part to pump the market and bought a new Stelvio.

I would very much like to trade my KLR in on a 650 twin version of it.... well with better suspension :
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:30 AM   #18
Kommando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mridefellow View Post
Yamaha has the Tenere. The other 3 of the "big 4" should come out with either an 800cc or 1200cc adventure-tourers.
DL1000

Crosstourer or Varadero

Versys 1000


Now, not all of these are offered in the US, but they wouldn't appeal to somebody like me. I'd be more likely to want a 400-450lb DL650 with DR-Z400 suspension and wheels. A CB500X with a 21" front wheel and means to mount a skid would be nice.
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:50 AM   #19
tkent02
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SV650 engine in a DR650 frame, make it air cooled and give it a wide ratio 6 speed, I'd hit it.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:18 AM   #20
TeepS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mridefellow View Post
Yamaha has the Tenere. The other 3 of the "big 4" should come out with either an 800cc or 1200cc adventure-tourers.
Why?
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:22 AM   #21
Ogre_fl
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I dont want a behemoth, there are enough of those to choose from now.

Kawasaki Versys 650 motor in a modern dual sport frame/chassis.
NOT the KLR's or DR's or even the DRZ's, something at least designed in this century.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:21 AM   #22
danketchpel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
SV650 engine in a DR650 frame, make it air cooled and give it a wide ratio 6 speed, I'd hit it.
I don't know about an aircooled SV650 engine. "Maybe" air/oil cooling but you'll have a bit of trouble with the rear cylinder unless they change the overall angle of the engine to be more Ducati like.

A wide ratio 6 spd is a good thing in most engines. I'm very tired of close ratio transmisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogre_fl View Post
I dont want a behemoth, there are enough of those to choose from now.

Kawasaki Versys 650 motor in a modern dual sport frame/chassis.
NOT the KLR's or DR's or even the DRZ's, something at least designed in this century.
While I'd like good modern suspension etc. I'm not sure I want an aluminum perimeter frame, I prefer lightweight steel tube frames, or possibly an aluminum perimeter main frame with a sturdy steel tube subframe.

I'd still be very happy if they offered The Versys 650 (or other 650 twin) engine in something as good as a DRZ chassis. I don't see this as a competition bike.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:35 AM   #23
markjenn
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My ideal spec that the mfgs don't seem to want to build....

- 450-650cc twin-cyl making 50-65 RWHP (basically Wee level of tune)
- weight in the 350-400 lb range (depending on fuel and accessories)
- 21"/18" wire wheels mounting tubeless rubber
- full double-cradle frame (below engine) for protection and proper skidplate mounting
- 7+ gallon fuel capacity
- 8-10" suspension travel
- enough fairing and wind protection for reasonable lightweight touring
- integrated soft-bag luggage option
- 34" or less seat height
- unlinked ABS brakes (no engine modes or traction control)
- excellent standard tipover protection

I don't think it would take any "new technology" to bring this bike to market, just the wherewithal to take a chance. I think Honda is the best positioned right now to do a bike like this - base it on the CB500X and call it the new Transalp.

I think the problem with this bike spec is that it would appeal to a somewhat limited market, but OTOH, the builder would have this market totally to themselves. Another issue is cost - this would be a $9-$10K bike which in the minds of many would be competing with $6500 KLRs and CB500Xs.

- Mark
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:09 PM   #24
tweeder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
My ideal spec that the mfgs don't seem to want to build....

- 450-650cc twin-cyl making 50-65 RWHP (basically Wee level of tune)
- weight in the 350-400 lb range (depending on fuel and accessories)
- 21"/18" wire wheels mounting tubeless rubber
- full double-cradle frame (below engine) for protection and proper skidplate mounting
- 7+ gallon fuel capacity
- 8-10" suspension travel
- enough fairing and wind protection for reasonable lightweight touring
- integrated soft-bag luggage option
- 34" or less seat height
- unlinked ABS brakes (no engine modes or traction control)
- excellent standard tipover protection

I don't think it would take any "new technology" to bring this bike to market, just the wherewithal to take a chance. I think Honda is the best positioned right now to do a bike like this - base it on the CB500X and call it the new Transalp.

I think the problem with this bike spec is that it would appeal to a somewhat limited market, but OTOH, the builder would have this market totally to themselves. Another issue is cost - this would be a $9-$10K bike which in the minds of many would be competing with $6500 KLRs and CB500Xs.

- Mark
What will this bike be made of to get it in at 350-400 lbs, especially with 7 gallons (what it in the world do you NEED 7 gallons for?), integrated crash protection, soft luggage option, full double cradle frame, etc?

Aren't you basically talking about a 990 Adventure with a smaller engine?
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:23 PM   #25
danketchpel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
My ideal spec that the mfgs don't seem to want to build....

- 450-650cc twin-cyl making 50-65 RWHP (basically Wee level of tune)
- weight in the 350-400 lb range (depending on fuel and accessories)
- 21"/18" wire wheels mounting tubeless rubber
- full double-cradle frame (below engine) for protection and proper skidplate mounting
- 7+ gallon fuel capacity
- 8-10" suspension travel
- enough fairing and wind protection for reasonable lightweight touring
- integrated soft-bag luggage option
- 34" or less seat height
- unlinked ABS brakes (no engine modes or traction control)
- excellent standard tipover protection

I don't think it would take any "new technology" to bring this bike to market, just the wherewithal to take a chance. I think Honda is the best positioned right now to do a bike like this - base it on the CB500X and call it the new Transalp.

I think the problem with this bike spec is that it would appeal to a somewhat limited market, but OTOH, the builder would have this market totally to themselves. Another issue is cost - this would be a $9-$10K bike which in the minds of many would be competing with $6500 KLRs and CB500Xs.

- Mark
I agree with most and think it's feasible with a few adjustments.

I think it needs to be close to 650cc to have sufficient torque. You can look to the Aprilia RXV450/550 twin for the smaller displacement/higher rev option.

I think for a ~650 twin that is reliable and has sufficient oil capacity to go the distance, plus a full double cradle frame, it will be over 400 lbs for sure and I'm OK with that but not over 450 lbs. I think 425-430 lbs is a good and achievable target. I would entertain an open loop frame with no top section using the engine as a major stressed member, possibly even no bottom loop if they cast in beefy mounts for real world skid plate.

I don't see a need for more than 6 gal of fuel, especially if it's getting ~50 mpg like a Wee does. I really don't want a massive Dakar fuel tank I have to climb around on, but something the size of the KLR tank is fine. Basically give me a solid 200 mile range with at least 30 miles of reserve.

I think seat height vs suspension travel will have to be worked out, not sure where that would end up. I'd give up a little suspension travel to get a reasonable seat height. I don't see attempting to clear triples or going WOT over 3' tall whoops on this bike.

I'd like to see flexible wind protection options, basically sell it in kit form that allows you to add/remove items depending on your planned trip. Maybe start with a basic headlight shell that carries the dash panel and offer different height windscreens and possibly lower panels for leg protection if you want to bolt them on.

I hear ya on no electro mojo foo foo, just make it simple with cable control and direct braking. Make the FI easily user adjustable for pipe changes etc. I think Yamaha is already doing this on their motocross bikes. Laptop tuning rocks and I don't want to give that up.

I completely agree there's no new technology required, just adapt what's already been done on other bikes and package it correctly.

In my mind it's similar to a KTM 950 Super Enduro, only smaller, lighter?, lower and hopefully more affordable with easier servicing. We just need "honey I shrunk the 950 SE....."
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:56 PM   #26
markjenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeder View Post
What will this bike be made of to get it in at 350-400 lbs, especially with 7 gallons (what it in the world do you NEED 7 gallons for?), integrated crash protection, soft luggage option, full double cradle frame, etc?

Aren't you basically talking about a 990 Adventure with a smaller engine?
A 650cc version of the 990 adventure is a reasonable way to envision it.

As to the 7-gal fuel requirement, BMW has sold boatloads of GSA's mainly on the merits of the bigger fuel tank. I ride a S10 now and even with 6 gallons, I'm always conscious of needing to watch fuel closely and make sure I don't get too deep into the woods without knowing where the next fuel station is. Frankly, I'm preplexed why folks think a 200 mile range is acceptable in a motorcycle when virtually every car in the world has 300+ miles. As to the weight penalty, its minor unless you fill the tank so why not have the option? I rode a 640 Adventure for a few years with a 7-gallon tank and had no issues with the fuel tank being intrusive or problematic. it was wonderful.

I agree that 400-lbs is an ambitious weight goal, but if BMW can produce a shaft-drive, 1200cc twin that weighs 525, there is no reason a 650cc chain-drive twin can't be down somewhere near this goal. It does take a commitment to weight control during design and the use of some higher-tech and more expensive materials. I suspect a 425-lb version of the bike I'm talking about would be $500 or so more expensive than a 475-lb version. I'm willing to pay for it. Whether others are, I don't know.

- Mark
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:34 PM   #27
usgser
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I'd love to see a trend back to standard motorcycles rather than this you need a maga monster motor at a mega price bike to have fun on a motorcycle. For later bikes I'd love to see and buy a 400-500cc version of the TU250x. Wouldn't care single or twin.
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:55 PM   #28
Harry Potter
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I think if Yamaha built a 400-450cc version of the WR250R, I would be down to only having one bike for non two up rides.
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:59 PM   #29
The Rizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Potter View Post
I think if Yamaha built a 400-450cc version of the WR250R, I would be down to only having one bike for non two up rides.
Ditto in that.
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:06 PM   #30
John Ashman
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I've said it before, so pardon me for repeating, but if Honda simply stroked the CRF250L engine to make it square, it would be a torque 350cc engine that would only weigh maybe an extra couple of pounds.

Also, a 500cc, sub 400lb CB500 is doable, because, hell, look at a KLX250 and go from there. It's 300lbs wet. So, the CB500 engine is only about 30lbs more. Toss in another 20lbs for stiffening the shocks and frame and you're at 350 wet. Add in some more for some small fairing and/or other conveniences and you're there. The 350 KTM Freeride engine weighs 77lbs. The CB500 engine weighs 116.

Actually, what I want is a 350-375lb CB500 Scrambler. Basically a trail bike that can go as fast as need be, but with an accessible seat height. Maybe 7" or so suspension.
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