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Old 01-02-2014, 07:20 AM   #46
Motovista
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This is why your belt failed prematurely:
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=203

JerryH describes how he changes a belt-

"When removing the CVT, there are 3 nuts that have to come off. People have come up with all kinds of ways to get these nuts off. Many use an impact driver, and if you have one that's great. I do not own one, the ones at work are pneumatic, and I don't have a compressor big enough to power one. The first thing I did was to use an electric engraver to make a mark on both the nut and the end of the shaft, so I could tell where they lined up before removing them. On the front pulley, there was a toothed gear behind it, and I fed a rag in between the gear and the case. I then put the box end of a combination wrench on the nut, and tapped on the wrench with a hammer (homemade impact driver). Don't hit it really hard, remember that's the crankshaft you are banging on. After a short time the nut came loose.

On the clutch bell, I put a clamp on the rear brake lever, and tightened the lever down against the handlebar, locking the rear wheel, then removed the nut the same way as I did the front one. Once the clutch bell is off, the rear pulley and clutch assembly slides off. There is large diameter flat nut that holds it all together. I used a really large Crescent wrench on that one, put the assembly down on the floor on an old piece of carpet, and held it with one hand while tapping on the wrench with a hammer. Again it came off fairly quickly.

When I put it all back together, I did it the same way I took it apart, lining up the marks I made earlier. I have torque wrenches, but they are worthless unless you have a really solid way to hold what you are tightening. "

The tools to remove a clutch and variator are extremely inexpensive, and it really would be worth investing in a set, because if you do get a bigger scooter and change the belt this way, things are going to go south a lot faster.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:44 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
This is why your belt failed prematurely:
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=203
You've repeated this now multiple times stating that Jerry's belt failure was due to the way he changed it.

It would be much more helpful if you stated specifically what about how he changed his belt caused it to fail, not just point to a thread and say his method of changing the belt did it.

I am not saying you are wrong, but the way you are positioning it does not explain cause & effect, merely implies that JerryH doesn't know how to properly change a belt, and therefore the belt failed. I'm trying to understand how the belt failed based on whether the bolts were removed without a holding tool, or not retorqued with a torque wrench.

I have never owned a CVT setup, so I would like to better understand what makes them tick. It does seem that this thread has resorted a little to piling on simply because the OP has a tendency to be annoying in his way of presenting opinion as fact....
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dabears View Post
You've repeated this now multiple times stating that Jerry's belt failure was due to the way he changed it.

It would be much more helpful if you stated specifically what about how he changed his belt caused it to fail, not just point to a thread and say his method of changing the belt did it.

I am not saying you are wrong, but the way you are positioning it does not explain cause & effect, merely implies that JerryH doesn't know how to properly change a belt, and therefore the belt failed. I'm trying to understand how the belt failed based on whether the bolts were removed without a holding tool, or not retorqued with a torque wrench.

I have never owned a CVT setup, so I would like to better understand what makes them tick. It does seem that this thread has resorted a little to piling on simply because the OP has a tendency to be annoying in his way of presenting opinion as fact....
Excellent point. JerryH is not the first person to come up with this method of replacing drive belts, and he won't be the last. Shoving things behind the variator plate to hold it still in order to beat it off with a hammer can bend them out of true, damage the base of the outer plate or cause cracks in the rear plate itself. Also, at the mileage he had, he needed new sliders, because they also wear out and the variator doesn't perform properly at high speed, no matter how well it seems to operate in your hands. I've seen this in a lot of variators where a rag, screwdriver, c-clamp or other item was used to hold the variator in place. and they get the outer drive pulley slightly out of true, or break something like the sliders. If you don't lubricate the clutch in 24,000 miles, it has a tendency to get sticky and grab the belt, even though when it is cool you can squeeze it and it will open and close. It's not as smooth as it should be, but if you don't handle enough of them to know how they are supposed to feel, it's hard to know that it's not right. On variators with an aluminum fixed outer drive plate, there is a washer between the bushing and the faceplate, and if you don't reinstall it where it should go, this can also cause what happened. If someone changed the belt using the right tools, and changed out the rollers and sliders at the same time, and lubricated the clutch, and the belt failed, I would say it was a defective belt. When someone sticks a rag in the case, forcing the variator in a direction it was not meant to go, and then beats on a nut with a hammer, which you cannot lightly tap to free if it's torqued down, you would have to give it a good whack, and then repeats the process in reverse to get the parts back together, not to mention could not properly torque down the clutch shoes with a crescent wrench, you are going to damage the assembly and the belt will fail, every time.
Now as far as servicing the clutch, there is a link to a zuma site where the poster says what he did, and then further down, says it didn't work, because the whole thing is a greasy mess. Service manuals for just about every scooter made are online, and they all have instructions as to how the clutch should be lubricated, serviced and maintained. Factory service manuals tend to be a more accurate source of information about servicing your scooter than posts on the internet.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
Excellent point. JerryH is not the first person to come up with this method of replacing drive belts, and he won't be the last. Shoving things behind the variator plate to hold it still in order to beat it off with a hammer can bend them out of true, damage the base of the outer plate or cause cracks in the rear plate itself. Also, at the mileage he had, he needed new sliders, because they also wear out and the variator doesn't perform properly at high speed, no matter how well it seems to operate in your hands. I've seen this in a lot of variators where a rag, screwdriver, c-clamp or other item was used to hold the variator in place. and they get the outer drive pulley slightly out of true, or break something like the sliders. If you don't lubricate the clutch in 24,000 miles, it has a tendency to get sticky and grab the belt, even though when it is cool you can squeeze it and it will open and close. It's not as smooth as it should be, but if you don't handle enough of them to know how they are supposed to feel, it's hard to know that it's not right. On variators with an aluminum fixed outer drive plate, there is a washer between the bushing and the faceplate, and if you don't reinstall it where it should go, this can also cause what happened. If someone changed the belt using the right tools, and changed out the rollers and sliders at the same time, and lubricated the clutch, and the belt failed, I would say it was a defective belt. When someone sticks a rag in the case, forcing the variator in a direction it was not meant to go, and then beats on a nut with a hammer, which you cannot lightly tap to free if it's torqued down, you would have to give it a good whack, and then repeats the process in reverse to get the parts back together, not to mention could not properly torque down the clutch shoes with a crescent wrench, you are going to damage the assembly and the belt will fail, every time.
Now as far as servicing the clutch, there is a link to a zuma site where the poster says what he did, and then further down, says it didn't work, because the whole thing is a greasy mess. Service manuals for just about every scooter made are online, and they all have instructions as to how the clutch should be lubricated, serviced and maintained. Factory service manuals tend to be a more accurate source of information about servicing your scooter than posts on the internet.
I like the fact that you advocate replacing the slide guides on the variator back plate. I have always told people to do this when they change their roller weights and or belt but most don't.
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
Excellent point. JerryH is not the first person to come up with this method of replacing drive belts, and he won't be the last. Shoving things behind the variator plate to hold it still in order to beat it off with a hammer can bend them out of true, damage the base of the outer plate or cause cracks in the rear plate itself. Also, at the mileage he had, he needed new sliders, because they also wear out and the variator doesn't perform properly at high speed, no matter how well it seems to operate in your hands. I've seen this in a lot of variators where a rag, screwdriver, c-clamp or other item was used to hold the variator in place. and they get the outer drive pulley slightly out of true, or break something like the sliders. If you don't lubricate the clutch in 24,000 miles, it has a tendency to get sticky and grab the belt, even though when it is cool you can squeeze it and it will open and close. It's not as smooth as it should be, but if you don't handle enough of them to know how they are supposed to feel, it's hard to know that it's not right. On variators with an aluminum fixed outer drive plate, there is a washer between the bushing and the faceplate, and if you don't reinstall it where it should go, this can also cause what happened. If someone changed the belt using the right tools, and changed out the rollers and sliders at the same time, and lubricated the clutch, and the belt failed, I would say it was a defective belt. When someone sticks a rag in the case, forcing the variator in a direction it was not meant to go, and then beats on a nut with a hammer, which you cannot lightly tap to free if it's torqued down, you would have to give it a good whack, and then repeats the process in reverse to get the parts back together, not to mention could not properly torque down the clutch shoes with a crescent wrench, you are going to damage the assembly and the belt will fail, every time.
Now as far as servicing the clutch, there is a link to a zuma site where the poster says what he did, and then further down, says it didn't work, because the whole thing is a greasy mess. Service manuals for just about every scooter made are online, and they all have instructions as to how the clutch should be lubricated, serviced and maintained. Factory service manuals tend to be a more accurate source of information about servicing your scooter than posts on the internet.
First of all, you make it sound like I used a sledge hammer to remove the nuts. Such is not the case. The front nut is a 22mm, and I used the box end of a 22mm combination wrench to remove it. A 22mm end wrench is over 11" long. That length gives you a lot of leverage. I tapped (not beat) on the open end of the wrench. It did take a couple of minutes of tapping to loosen the nut. An impact driver usually does it in a few seconds, so I was putting a lot less force on the nut than an impact driver.

While the outer face of the front pulley is very thin and would be easily damaged (and for some reason it is where Yamaha chose to put the holes for the holding tool) the rear face were the rollers go is anything but. The soft cotton rag was between the variator case and rear face. It did not damage anything. It did not completely lock the pulley, just made it harder to turn. The clutch bell nut (19mm) was removed the same way, with no damage.

I did install new rollers at 20,000 miles, when the third belt (the one that broke) was installed. The washer was installed between the bushing and the faceplate. Not sure what you mean about "forcing" the variator in a direction it was not meant to go. It will turn freely in both directions. It is splined to the crankshaft. While it's true that I didn't measure the torque exactly, you can't do that with an impact driver either. The three special Yamaha tools designed to remove the variator by the manual cost $300. I doubt very many have those. And using either homemade tools or an impact driver would have to be considered wrong by the book.

I did not disassemble the clutch shoes, they were fine. I removed and reinstalled the clutch assembly, the one held on by the large diameter flat nut. So I guess you disapprove of this method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDdglsl9PM Notice how little banging it takes to get the nut off. They are not that tight.

I only lubricated the parts on the rear assembly that were supposed to be lubricated. It was not a "greasy mess" I do have the oem Yamaha manual.

For someone who has been working on mechanical things for decades, it is pretty obvious that a CVT is a very fragile thing, and I treated it as such. Absolutely no damage was done to anything.

Part of the issue here is how you define facts. If the "only" correct way to do it is by the book, using Yamaha's tools, then almost everybody does it wrong. Just because you disagree with something does not mean it is not a fact.

There is a whole subculture of "scooter tuners" out there, using big bore kits, aftermarket variators, exhausts, carbs, changing the rollers and clutch springs to "tune" the variator, substituting "sliders" for stock rollers, and a great many other things. Yet, "by the book" all of this is wrong, and will destroy your scooter. And sometimes it does. That's why I use only factory oem parts, because I value reliability over performance. I'll bet you even sell performance parts, even though the manufacturers don't recommend them, and in most cases they will void the warranty.

Oh, and the first belt I replaced, at 10,000 miles, which lasted another 10,000 miles, and still looked good, was done the same way as the third and fourth belts. 1300 miles since I replaced the broken belt, and the scooter is running like new.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post

There is a whole subculture of "scooter tuners" out there, using big bore kits, aftermarket variators, exhausts, carbs, changing the rollers and clutch springs to "tune" the variator, substituting "sliders" for stock rollers, and a great many other things. Yet, "by the book" all of this is wrong, and will destroy your scooter. And sometimes it does. That's why I use only factory oem parts, because I value reliability over performance. I'll bet you even sell performance parts, even though the manufacturers don't recommend them, and in most cases they will void the warranty.
Yes, there is, and I have yet to meet a "scooter tuner," who wedges something between the variator and the case, and beats a wrench with a hammer to get the variator off.
There are Variator and Clutch removal tools that don't cost $400. Buzzetti makes them, so do a lot of Chinese and Taiwanese companies.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
Yes, there is, and I have yet to meet a "scooter tuner," who wedges something between the variator and the case, and beats a wrench with a hammer to get the variator off.
There are Variator and Clutch removal tools that don't cost $400. Buzzetti makes them, so do a lot of Chinese and Taiwanese companies.
You are speculating when you have no first hand inspection of the broken parts or the circumstances under which they broke. You can point fingers but in reality you will never know.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:14 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
Yes, there is, and I have yet to meet a "scooter tuner," who wedges something between the variator and the case, and beats a wrench with a hammer to get the variator off.
There are Variator and Clutch removal tools that don't cost $400. Buzzetti makes them, so do a lot of Chinese and Taiwanese companies.
I looked for advice on youtube for removing the clutch nut and there was a guy doing exactly what Jerry did with the adjustable wrench. He held the clutch in his hands and tapped the handle end gently on the floor a few times and the clutch nut loosened. I plan on doing that too.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:30 AM   #54
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The Honda Shop Manual recommended using two special tools, the Honda Fork Seal Driver Body (part no. 07747-0010100) and Fork Seal Driver Attachment (part no. 07747-3710100), to install new fork seals on my old Honda CX500. I instead used a scrap piece of PVC water pipe that worked great.

Knowing what will achieve the same effect as some factory-recommended tool that is either no longer available or prohibitively expensive is half the challenge & fun of the home mechanic. Yes, there are a million ways to potentially screw something up, but this variation is always present and rests with the mechanic themselves; we've all taken things to professional mechanics that were returned to us just as hacked as we could have done ourselves out in the backyard after a couple of beers, so having access to the right tools is only part of a much larger and complex equation.

Bear in mind that it's lucky the Wright Brothers were willing to experiment; they were, after all, only bicycle mechanics just trying something new.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:08 PM   #55
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I looked for advice on youtube for removing the clutch nut and there was a guy doing exactly what Jerry did with the adjustable wrench. He held the clutch in his hands and tapped the handle end gently on the floor a few times and the clutch nut loosened. I plan on doing that too.
If the clutch nut was torqued correctly, a few gentle taps wouldn't have freed it up.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:31 PM   #56
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If the clutch nut was torqued correctly, a few gentle taps wouldn't have freed it up.

The factory recommended torque on these nuts is very low, usually between 40-50 ft/lbs. When you have a wrench a foot long on it, and are tapping (not beating, no way would I beat on something so fragile) on the end 12" away from the nut, it doesn't take much. Such a long wrench gives you a lot of leverage. On the front nut, I was able to hand tighten it to less than a quarter turn of getting the marks lined up. After that it took about 2 minutes of gentle tapping on the end of the wrench to turn it the rest of the way.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:58 PM   #57
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If the clutch nut was torqued correctly, a few gentle taps wouldn't have freed it up.
That doesn't matter. What matters is that's how JerryH and a guy in a youtube video took one off.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:27 PM   #58
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That doesn't matter. What matters is that's how JerryH and a guy in a youtube video took one off.
I can't help but notice that some of you have taken to picking on JerryH, taking issue with everything he says. You seem to have singled him out for abuse, and I find it obnoxious.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:36 PM   #59
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I can't help but notice that some of you have taken to picking on JerryH, taking issue with everything he says. You seem to have singled him out for abuse, and I find it obnoxious.
Yes it has become obnoxious but not as obnoxious as JH yaking about the same thing over and over and over and over and over times infinity....but what really gets me about JH is not about his opinons on wrenching but his butting in on and going way off topic. Some ones asks a question about something then he responds by "here in Arizona blah blah blah..." No one ever ask about how it is in Arizona or do most even care but that is how he almost always responds.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:54 PM   #60
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I had a belt break once at wide open throttle and I coasted to the shoulder and took the bus home. I wear out belts on my Vespa as I have an open road commute I ride WOT most of the time, and I have come to learn how the belt feels as it gets tired. The scooter goes faster but acceleration feels a bit as though the engine is bogging when pulling away from a standstill.
How did I fix it? Put it on a trailer and took it to the shop. Jiri did a nice job and I took no one's name or beliefs in vain.
My belt is showing the same symptoms so I have ordered a replacement with rollers. Jiri will do the replacement again. It's how I live with my CVT. More riding, less bitching.
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