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Old 10-15-2013, 08:07 AM   #16
lineaway
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Money pit? I`ve got $4.99 from a tube of shoe goo in it!! And it beat a hand full of 2013 bikes that weekend! Ha!
Seriously were is the link to the 2011 in ADVR classifieds for all the Eco buyers to look at? Wink, wink.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:30 AM   #17
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Motobene is a great guy and a very solid rider. He is like me and will take his bike and make the most of it. No complaints, just make it work the best it can be and enjoy it. Not all people are this easy to please after seeing what might have been for a few dollars more. Nothing worse than buying a new bike, and all you can think of is that your old one worked better. That is the reality of buying an econo.
Recall my angst in several threads over thinking I had the perfect bike for me in my 280 Econo and me getting that 'new' 2011? I worked that issue every way I could, and today can conclude the moderate superiority of my very rebuilt `11 Raga. But I will still cry when I deliver the Econo to my next and growing club member this week

I get so into a ride and get to know it so well (I never stop tweaking all my bikes to make it better - some just go on hold for a while). It feels like a divorce when I change rides. Sounds like you are the same way, lineaway.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:48 AM   #18
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I am interested in what sort of problems folks have specifically had with these bikes. Mine was actually my fault.

I had been out of trials for 6 years before coming back in, and none of my other bikes had what is called "closed cartridge" forks. Well I do my maintenance and pump all the oil out of the Sachs fork cartridges, then re assemble them and add oil. Can't get the cartridge to pump through and in frustration, I just ride the bike. No damping in half the rebound with topping out!

I groused at the time about cheap forks and such, and saw another rider with Econo make the same mistake. The problem fixed itself as the oil surrounding the cartridge finally purged itself of air in ~12 hours of riding, and I added more oil to get the level right.

My opinion now of Sachs forks is they are pretty darned good. My opinion about the quality of tech info available for maintaining these and Marzocchi closed cartridge forks is not so high, however.

I just go around the problem now. I don't move the cartridges in an oil change and just change the oil around them. I do this twice or more depending on how dirty the oil is. Very easy that way. it's like automatic transmissions where you only change part of the oil in an oil change
and the cleaner oil eventually fully exchanges.

Oh and what was that other problem? Oh yeah. The shift eccentric needed adjusting, but thereafter she shifts nice.

My Econo shift lever surface looked like sand cast crap compared to the Raga, but it never broke despite getting wacked several times.

And not sure what you all mean by Asian parts. I'm going to investigate and see if this a contrived rumor or has some truth.

Turns one of my favorite non trials bikes, the BMW F650GS with Rotax single, when it became the a black-painted engine G650 has at least the Rotax-design engine made by Kymco. Not sure about the whole thing. Hasn't seemed to hurt it. 'The Asians' have for a long time produced the highest overall build quality motorcycles, though these days the Euros aren't far behind like they used to be. Blame it on the world wide quality revolution.

And those cheap brakes. Anyone have a photo of cheap parts? My 2010 Econo has the same front brake caliper as comes on the 2013 Ossa, and the rear is the same as my Raga, just not anodized titanium looking. The AJP master cylinders are also the same as my Raga.

Not fighting for any one brand or model here... just what is really true. And I recognize that is complex as there are many bikes out there and even more experiences. If these things truly aren't worth the money it should and is being discussed openly.

motobene screwed with this post 10-15-2013 at 10:53 AM
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:02 AM   #19
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Its a fact of life that a producer who has been teetering on the verge of bankruptcy for several years, is certainly going to be sourcing the cheapest possible parts, which mean reduced unit costs, and increased profits. Its something which is very common nowadays, but not that great for end users, whose bikes are often a lot less durable.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post

Not fighting for any one brand or model here... just what is really true. And I recognize that is complex as there are many bikes out there and even more experiences. If these things truly aren't worth the money it should and is being discussed openly.
I have seen two brand new econos from the same shipment sitting side by side with different parts on them. The most obvious was the exhaust. They just slap whatever they have left over and sell you a parts bin bike.

That is not all that bad (if the parts are up to par) but what frys me is GG is ruining their own re-sale market. It is impossible to sell a two year old Pro, Race or any used bike in the 4-5k range because a guy can get (what they perceive to be) an equal new bike for about the same money. I will never buy another new GG for this reason alone. It should however make for some great deals on two year old Ragas!!

Just image what the re-sell on a BMW 3 Series would be if they sold an identical looking car with left over parts at 60% of new.

Hey GG, just make a model run, sell what you can, discount the rest at the end of the year and quit ruining your customer's equity in the bikes that you just sold them!
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:59 AM   #21
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I have seen two brand new econos from the same shipment sitting side by side with different parts on them. The most obvious was the exhaust. They just slap whatever they have left over and sell you a parts bin bike.

That is not all that bad (if the parts are up to par) but what frys me is GG is ruining their own re-sale market. It is impossible to sell a two year old Pro, Race or any used bike in the 4-5k range because a guy can get (what they perceive to be) an equal new bike for about the same money. I will never buy another new GG for this reason alone. It should however make for some great deals on two year old Ragas!!

Just image what the re-sell on a BMW 3 Series would be if they sold an identical looking car with left over parts at 60% of new.

Hey GG, just make a model run, sell what you can, discount the rest at the end of the year and quit ruining your customer's equity in the bikes that you just sold them!
I agree with the resale value impact, but think its more focused on the Std Pro and agree its not good for current customers. I think the high end market (Raga) still has enough content differentiation to minimize that specific impact though. I do agree with your premise and believe the Econo bike marketing idea has run its course. Sherco apparently saw the light and haven't made a Eco bike each year. (I havent heard of one for this year either)

The area of depreciation that apples to Ragas IMO (and drives me nuts) is the later and later ship date like when a 2012 bike shows up in AUGUST of 2012. Really screws things up for the guy trying to sell his old bike too.

Your idea of them focusing on a model line would maybe help them hit a ship target as well! What is the Spanish word for Focus. I think it must be getting swapped in translation to Fu#K Us.....
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:54 AM   #22
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I agree with the resale value impact, but think its more focused on the Std Pro and agree its not good for current customers. I think the high end market (Raga) still has enough content differentiation to minimize that specific impact though. I do agree with your premise and believe the Econo bike marketing idea has run its course. Sherco apparently saw the light and haven't made a Eco bike each year. (I havent heard of one for this year either)

The area of depreciation that apples to Ragas IMO (and drives me nuts) is the later and later ship date like when a 2012 bike shows up in AUGUST of 2012. Really screws things up for the guy trying to sell his old bike too.

Your idea of them focusing on a model line would maybe help them hit a ship target as well! What is the Spanish word for Focus. I think it must be getting swapped in translation to Fu#K Us.....
Wahrscheinlich am besten ist es nicht zu scheißen Rührer Kommentare anzugehen.

As for the Spanish word for Focus, it's "enfocar", so if you emphasize the 2nd syllable, it sounds like what you wrote

Being an engineer, what marketing does and how marketing strategy evolves can look illogical. Harley models, for example. Alphabet soup FXHLXHFS and such mysteries as "Fat Boy." Might as well have called a bike "Lard Ass." But it worked for them.

There is wisdom in model levels. But four of them? I could see three:

- The left-over inventory bikes (Economy)

I think this is a brilliant economic solution. What is odd, however, is they have to keep producing new older designs and fit new parts to meet the orders for these economy bikes. My money is on the 2010 frame being made after 2012 as no factory with a long running history over produces that many 2010 frames. The potential for different parts on the same model is interesting. One must look at an Econo and say, I've got one without oddball or critical lower quality parts, or one can pass and buy the next model up.

- The standard model: Roll the Pro/Race into one model

- A 'Factory'/replica bike should be full of expensive stuff and cost significantly more. More than just a shock, paint, and stickers. How about a full set of titanium and aluminum fasteners!

- Offer the pricey factory items and kits to customers (expensive and there may be few takers)

GasGas are the one with their own marketing scheme and sales figures. They've been around a long time and have been sticking with this scheme, so perhaps they know more than we do?
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:48 AM   #23
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``My money is on the 2010 frame being made after 2012 as no factory with a long running history over produces that many 2010 frames.``
They have to, the bikes that are ridden hard break them quite regularly. And that is not only a Gasser issue.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:29 AM   #24
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You guys have gotten my curiosity up....

Are you SURE the frame is a "2010" and not a frame built to the 2010 spec with cheaper materials?????

I think the Eco models make good sense from a manufacturing stand-point. The casting molds are already made, why not use them (if they are not worn out)? You can make a bike with the old fixtures and still make money. Get rid of the parts that you over bought to get the volume discount, when they run out, buy cheaper ones and keep it running.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:05 PM   #25
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I think the Eco models make good sense from a manufacturing stand-point. The casting molds are already made, why not use them (if they are not worn out)? You can make a bike with the old fixtures and still make money. Get rid of the parts that you over bought to get the volume discount, when they run out, buy cheaper ones and keep it running.
Why even make new models then? Why not just keep adding cheap parts that you "over-bought" at at a discount and throw some new stickers on every now and then?
Grind in a current model year on the frame and you are good to go econo-style.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:23 PM   #26
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Why even make new models then? Why not just keep adding cheap parts that you "over-bought" at at a discount and throw some new stickers on every now and then?
Grind in a current model year on the frame and you are good to go econo-style.
As far as we (mere mortals) are concerned, purely marketing. We want to ride what the pros are, if you don't supply that, we will go to a company that will (Montesa is kind of the exception). As long as ONE of the companies supplies a bike that is somewhat the bike the world guys are riding, it will drive the others.

For those that don't care, there is the Eco.

Realistically, I am really surprised how often the companies come out with an "all new" bike. I can't imagine they make much money. They must sell WAY more bikes in Europe.

Just to clarify: To me (engineer), sales and marketing are hand in hand.....
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:38 PM   #27
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. I can't imagine they make much money. They must sell WAY more bikes in Europe.
Trials bikes are stripped down bikes that sell for what a full sized street legal bike sells for. Granted, they are hand built with small production runs and it must be tough to make any money at it.

But....if you are taking left over parts and making a bike that someone will buy, more power to them. I am not changing my position on how they are cutting new bike buyers off at the knees by doing that.
If you can buy a GG Pro or Race and then have to sell it for $3,000 a few years later without getting pissed, you obviously have enough money where this doesn't matter. I don't and won't buy another brand new one and probably not a used one either.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Why even make new models then? Why not just keep adding cheap parts that you "over-bought" at at a discount and throw some new stickers on every now and then?
Grind in a current model year on the frame and you are good to go econo-style.
You mean like montessa has done for what, 7 years? now sure that was inflammatory remark on my side, but what is new about the 4rt? Sherco sold basically the same bike for several years, different paints and maybe accessories. FWIW, gasgas is as well, not just picking on the others here.

GM sells cars for at least 4 model years, without hardly even a new crease in fenders or hood or interior parts. Nowadays, maybe less time, as the "me" generation wants the new to be different, though I laugh that the biggest selling thing is the iPhone5 s? (s meaning Sucker, designed in what, 2004? lolz.) every year they do something, like Gasgas: in 2002 it was the 2001 shocks and forks and most of the parts on a "new frame with new engine" for gasgas, then they bit by bit updated other parts... if I was selling things, to sell this years bike and never be able to have better ideas in design in the future, why would you? it is NOT like the government, that would love cookie cutter perfectly same items, for 20 years. No, public wants the latest idea and better ideas. but even government attitude would be nice, spare parts plentiful and no cost to design new every year, the bikes would be 100% profit in 3 years, or cheap to buy (no that cant be right)
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Trials bikes are stripped down bikes that sell for what a full sized street legal bike sells for. Granted, they are hand built with small production runs and it must be tough to make any money at it.

But....if you are taking left over parts and making a bike that someone will buy, more power to them. I am not changing my position on how they are cutting new bike buyers off at the knees by doing that.
If you can buy a GG Pro or Race and then have to sell it for $3,000 a few years later without getting pissed, you obviously have enough money where this doesn't matter. I don't and won't buy another brand new one and probably not a used one either.
Hey G - Just wait until you try and sell that BYOB of yours.

What I dont get is why anyone in there right mind would want to make yet ANOTHER trials bike brand. Talk about a small piece of a small pie. Maybe if you can leverage it into enduro bikes, but still - high risk.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:45 PM   #30
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You mean like montessa has done for what, 7 years? now sure that was inflammatory remark on my side, but what is new about the 4rt? Sherco sold basically the same bike for several years, different paints and maybe accessories. FWIW, gasgas is as well, not just picking on the others here.

GM sells cars for at least 4 model years, without hardly even a new crease in fenders or hood or interior parts. Nowadays, maybe less time, as the "me" generation wants the new to be different, though I laugh that the biggest selling thing is the iPhone5 s? (s meaning Sucker, designed in what, 2004? lolz.) every year they do something, like Gasgas: in 2002 it was the 2001 shocks and forks and most of the parts on a "new frame with new engine" for gasgas, then they bit by bit updated other parts... if I was selling things, to sell this years bike and never be able to have better ideas in design in the future, why would you? it is NOT like the government, that would love cookie cutter perfectly same items, for 20 years. No, public wants the latest idea and better ideas. but even government attitude would be nice, spare parts plentiful and no cost to design new every year, the bikes would be 100% profit in 3 years, or cheap to buy (no that cant be right)

To be completely honest, if you had a brand new NOS Gas Gas produced 7 years ago, and a 2013 bike, would your results be that much different on the 2013? The only real difference would be the gearbox on the newer bike, would probably last a lot longer than the older bike, which came with a lot of built in problem areas.
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