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Old 10-18-2013, 09:52 AM   #16
DCrider
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From what you said the main goal is to remove the temperature differential between the internal wall/air temp in basement and the external wall temp to stop condensation. So based on your lack of need for asthetics I see no reason to drywall over the rigid sheets. You can always do it in a stepwise process, if rigid sheets on wall alone work then you can decide later to add flooring and spend $ to purty it all up. Any $ saved now pays for gas and more bike farkles
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DCrider View Post
From what you said the main goal is to remove the temperature differential between the internal wall/air temp in basement and the external wall temp to stop condensation. So based on your lack of need for asthetics I see no reason to drywall over the rigid sheets. You can always do it in a stepwise process, if rigid sheets on wall alone work then you can decide later to add flooring and spend $ to purty it all up. Any $ saved now pays for gas and more bike farkles

Exactly correct. Good point on not needing drywall too. It's a basement, don't care what it looks like to be honest. I'm not entering a 'best basement' contest or anything.

The biggest thing I was wanting to make sure what that using the rigid sheets is the correct way, and I'm still a little stumped on flooring. I've seen a few options, both here and other places, but I'm still not positive on what will be the best and most cost effective option for me.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:33 PM   #18
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I found the underlayment squares you're talking about at lowe's the other day. Pricy though, I believe it was $6 for a 2x2 square. So what you're suggesting is, top to bottom:

Finished floor
Plywood
Insulation
Underlayment squares
Concrete

Look right? 2 issues I see for me will be cost and height added by the entry door. A work-around on both will be to put the floor on hold for this year, then when the time comes just use floor paint at the entry door with a small step-up for the rest of the basement. I'm OK with that. Cost will likely be up to $5 a square foot by the time it's all said and done, which seems high but if it's right I'm OK with that.
Yes - those are - unfortunately - the problems ($ and height) when doing renovations to what was originally designed to be no more livable than a garage floor. If you didn't need the underfloor drainage channels you could just put down foam board insulation and pressure-treated plywood on top. Less $ and height. Maybe think of a ramp at the door VS a step; would be much more handy and less of a transition.

RE: painting foam insulation/furring strips - there is only one foam insulation that has the fire retarding surface already built in (what the drywall gives you) - Thermax. You could glue this directly to the block wall and call it done if you don't want to run any electrical/plumbing. Otherwise you need to add the 5/8" drywall as a safety precaution (and to be code compliant).
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:38 AM   #19
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Yes - those are - unfortunately - the problems ($ and height) when doing renovations to what was originally designed to be no more livable than a garage floor. If you didn't need the underfloor drainage channels you could just put down foam board insulation and pressure-treated plywood on top. Less $ and height. Maybe think of a ramp at the door VS a step; would be much more handy and less of a transition.

I don't think I need the drain channels at this point, but I understand that there is a good chance that one day I will have water of some kind. Either from outside or from a plumbing leak.

RE: painting foam insulation/furring strips - there is only one foam insulation that has the fire retarding surface already built in (what the drywall gives you) - Thermax. You could glue this directly to the block wall and call it done if you don't want to run any electrical/plumbing. Otherwise you need to add the 5/8" drywall as a safety precaution (and to be code compliant).
Good point on the fire stuff. Drywall it is.


I'm just going to paint the floor for now. Do the walls over the winter, then throw some paint down this spring and call it good. It might not even be that bad like that. As I said earlier I heat with a wood stove, so it's not like I have huge heating bills down there. I might notice a small amount of reduced wood use, but I doubt it. I'll likely just have a slightly warmer basement but use the same amount of wood.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:48 PM   #20
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Here is what I found online a while back which seems like a really good plan and is what I am planning to do when the time comes.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:47 PM   #21
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One of the long term issues with foam slabs is that they shrink. If you want better long term coverage for the walls and floor, use sheets half as thick as you want and overlap the joints as well as tape them. That will give you a good moisture barrier.

Dow makes a Wallmate board with channels cut for 1x4 furring strips if you want them flush, or you can put a 2/4 in there if you want them to protrude. Leave a gap at the bottom for water and drywall away to your heart's content.

The Barricade floating subfloor system works well, you can also install it on top of the existing floor, or on top of other foam boards if you want more insulation. Dead simple to work with, and give you a base to put something else on top. It also has some channels to allow water flow underneath them, but it doesnt' hurt to keep easy access to a drain. If you get a small basement pipe burst type flood event, you can just pop them up and dry/replace them. http://www.ovrx.com/basement-flooring.html

The above are what I did in my PNW basement, it's made a noticeable difference.

Be prepared to invest in a dehumidifier no matter what.
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #22
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may be over kill

I put hardwood floors over concrete using this method.
Seal floor.
Trowel roofing tar onto concrete, place plastic over it, spred another layer of tar on plastic. Lay down 3/4 " cdx. I use 1/4" drive pins to anchor the ply down.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:40 AM   #23
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What about gluing the insulation up and then gluing FRP panels to it? Simple/ bright colored/ easy to clean/ and will not grow mold.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:13 PM   #24
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Here is what I found online a while back which seems like a really good plan and is what I am planning to do when the time comes.
Thanks. That's basically what I'm wanting to do, except I probably won't use the fiberglass. I don't think the cost, added wall thickness, and added time
would be worth it. If I heated with something other than wood I may reconsider though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Commuter Boy View Post
One of the long term issues with foam slabs is that they shrink. If you want better long term coverage for the walls and floor, use sheets half as thick as you want and overlap the joints as well as tape them. That will give you a good moisture barrier.

Dow makes a Wallmate board with channels cut for 1x4 furring strips if you want them flush, or you can put a 2/4 in there if you want them to protrude. Leave a gap at the bottom for water and drywall away to your heart's content.

The Barricade floating subfloor system works well, you can also install it on top of the existing floor, or on top of other foam boards if you want more insulation. Dead simple to work with, and give you a base to put something else on top. It also has some channels to allow water flow underneath them, but it doesnt' hurt to keep easy access to a drain. If you get a small basement pipe burst type flood event, you can just pop them up and dry/replace them. http://www.ovrx.com/basement-flooring.html

The above are what I did in my PNW basement, it's made a noticeable difference.

Be prepared to invest in a dehumidifier no matter what.
Good point, I'll double up on thinner sheets. Cost is the same either way, better to have the seams staggered.

The barricade subfloor system looks exactly like what I want to do, except I was planning on just buying 4x8 sheets of everything instead of the little 2x2 they use. No water channels if I did it my way, although I'm not sure on how big of a difference they'd make.




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What about gluing the insulation up and then gluing FRP panels to it? Simple/ bright colored/ easy to clean/ and will not grow mold.

I'm not against that idea. Thanks. I'll look around for a local source, I haven't seen any at Lowe's. Home Depot is about an hour away, next day off I was planning on riding up anyways to look around.


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Old 10-22-2013, 04:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jules083 View Post

I'm not against that idea. Thanks. I'll look around for a local source, I haven't seen any at Lowe's. Home Depot is about an hour away, next day off I was planning on riding up anyways to look around.


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I know the Home Depots around here carry it. They hide it near the trim isle. It usually is laying flat on the floor, pretty easy to walk right past it.
Download the Home Depot app for your phone and it will tell you what isle has the panels.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:14 AM   #26
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Here is what I found online a while back which seems like a really good plan and is what I am planning to do when the time comes.
I'm living in cold climate and this does not really look as correct solution.
Idea of insulation (at least where I live) is to keep dew point outside of building and walls warm and dry.
Otherwise you are just heating air inside and hide those problems (dew point) behind insulation. They will come sooner or later back haunt you.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:25 PM   #27
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In my experience, if you want to get rid of the dampness you need to eliminate the temperature differential between the block wall and the living space. That is what creates the condensation and hence the dampness. Frame insulate vapour barrier and finish with drywall or whatever you want. Provided you insulate the block from the inside temperature it won't condensate.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:00 PM   #28
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There's a Canadian home improvement guru called Shell Busey who's been around for ages. I followed his procedure when finishing a basement room and it worked out great. Here's a cut and paste from his site:

"The proper way to insulate and finish inside concrete walls is in the following manner: Identify the outside grade level, and then transfer this measurement to the inside of the concrete wall. From that point, use a level and draw a line on the wall 6” above the grade line all the way along the interior of your concrete wall. This now becomes the height of your polyvapour seal – 6-mil polyethylene (available in 10’ widths). Spread a bead of acoustic adhesive along this line (acoustic adhesive is available at your local building supply store in tube form). This adhesive will stick your 6-mil polyethylene to the concrete. Apply the same adhesive down the inside of the concrete wall and out onto the floor. This stops any moisture emanating from the concrete to the wood studs. Build stud walls that are 1 ˝” shorter than the actual wall height. This allows the walls to be tilted up and put into position and you can then screw them to the underside of your joists up tight against the concrete wall. Cut Styrofoam or polyurethane foam in blocks (1 ˝” thick) and position them every 2 feet along the bottom of the stud wall. Pound a 4” common nail (it doesn’t have to be a concrete nail) through the bottom plate and the foam block and into the concrete, stopping when your hammer rings. The wall will remain in place because it is now screwed to the underside of the joist and nailed into the concrete floor. Now you are ready to prepare the wall for insulation. If there is a pony wall above the concrete, remove any polyvapour seal from this wall. Stack R12 insulation batts behind, lying on their side above the concrete wall and the joist above, thus covering the pony wall section if it exists. Put insulation batts in green garbage bags making insulation pillows. Put these “pillows” in the joist header areas (where the joist runs over the plate to the outside joist fascia). Run insulation batts between the newly studded wall from the joist line to the floor. Finally, take the extra polyethylene vapour seal that is lying out on the floor (the excess of the 10 ft. width) and bring it up around the studded wall as far as it will reach and staple it in place. Staple another piece of polyethylene from the top area onto the underside of the joist 12” out from the studded wall bringing it down the wall to meet the polyethylene coming up from the floor. Overlap them and seal with acoustic adhesive. You have now totally encased the finished interior framing wall and will prevent any moisture that may emit from the concrete to get into the wood fibre and/or insulation causing a musty odour. Proceed to drywall or panel. Now no moisture will ever get near a wood fibre. If there is ever a crack in the wall or floor, the moisture will run up against the polyethylene, run back in behind and out onto the floor and will be identified at the floor line rather than up in behind your panelling or drywall. - See more at: http://www.askshell.com/Newsletter-365-Basement-Finishing#sthash.wwWJXZyI.dpuf"
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:00 PM   #29
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There's a Canadian home improvement guru called Shell Busey who's been around for ages. I followed his procedure when finishing a basement room and it worked out great. Here's a cut and paste from his site:
The XPS sheeting as shown above (do use multi-layers; do use either UL181 or flashing tape across seams) will provide a better moisture barrier with less work and chance of failure. If you need space to run electrical lines or plumbing then use a stud wall, otherwise Thermax glued directly to the XPS or polyisocyanurate foam on the XPS with furring strips and 5/8" "no paper" (or "green board") drywall. Forget about bagged fiberglass for the rim joist areas - use roughly-cut blocks of 2" polyisocyanurate foam board (also R12) to fit the space and foam-in-a-can around the perimeter. Fast and foolproof.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:45 PM   #30
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Keep access and Ceiling height

http://www.ceilinglink.com

Tile ceiling without the drop

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