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Old 10-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #16
tmotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideoff View Post
Any thoughts on the double layer vs single layer approach?
I'm convinced this is the best approach. No fabric does it all. The capital investment and minimum weight involved is low enough to warrant it. Something with the highest possible abrasion resistance on the outside, and a waterproof shell inside. Most nylon fabrics are waterproof because of the coating they put inside to prevent fraying. But it's the seams that cause the problems.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #17
HaChayalBoded
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Originally Posted by FlowBee View Post
Any way you could laminate a PacSafe mesh bag between the two walls so the bags can be made slash resistant and lockable? That's pretty much the main reason people use hard bags - "security" when away from the bike.

The Magadan bags use a layer of aramid weave to attempt this.
the problem with laminating that exomesh in between two layers is that it is not visible. You generally would want that on the outside the the "honest theif" sees it and then moves on to an easier target.

If someone slashes the bag open to find it has an exomesh skeleton then it's already too late, your bags have been slashed.

One reason I never lock my panniers is that I rather have someone open them up and see that there is nothing of value in there, than to break it open only to find out the same.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by tmotten View Post
Problem with any slash resistant layer is that it's only resistant (not "proof" as suggested in marketing material by some) to a point. Aramid isn't even decreases over time as well apparently. So the claims are completely miss guided and evidence is never supplied.

More info here:
http://www.satra.co.uk/spotlight/art...iew.php?id=394

Exomesh by pacsafe is currently the best way to go for security but that also has a limit, but a very high one. Those guys that own that company are notoriously disinterested to collaborate.
No need to go through pacsafe. You can make your own for a tenth the cost and make it from any gauge wire you like.

All it is is a few really long coated steel cables with a bunch of double cable umm, thingies. I forget what those are called. But they are in bins in different sizes right below the steel braided cables in any home depot or lowes.

I've made plenty of custom stuff using that stuff in the past, it's a peice of cake to duplicate a pacsafe.

Next time you're at a home depot or lowes check it out and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:35 PM   #19
tmotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaChayalBoded View Post
the problem with laminating that exomesh in between two layers is that it is not visible. You generally would want that on the outside the the "honest theif" sees it and then moves on to an easier target.

If someone slashes the bag open to find it has an exomesh skeleton then it's already too late, your bags have been slashed.

One reason I never lock my panniers is that I rather have someone open them up and see that there is nothing of value in there, than to break it open only to find out the same.
I disagree with that. To me it tells me that there's something valuable in there worth the trouble. The shiny catches the eye which is the loss of the first line of defense. Inconspicuousness. Nothing wrong with a slashed bag so long the liner isn't slashed. Even then, it can be patched.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:38 PM   #20
tmotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaChayalBoded View Post
No need to go through pacsafe. You can make your own for a tenth the cost and make it from any gauge wire you like.

All it is is a few really long coated steel cables with a bunch of double cable umm, thingies. I forget what those are called. But they are in bins in different sizes right below the steel braided cables in any home depot or lowes.

I've made plenty of custom stuff using that stuff in the past, it's a peice of cake to duplicate a pacsafe.

Next time you're at a home depot or lowes check it out and you'll see what I mean.
True. They're just swaged joints. I'm making a daisy chain that way, but it's all of labor if you sell it as a product. I'm not sure how the steel is laminated to the nylon. I think their patent is close to running out though.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowBee View Post
Any way you could laminate a PacSafe mesh bag between the two walls so the bags can be made slash resistant and lockable? That's pretty much the main reason people use hard bags - "security" when away from the bike.

The Magadan bags use a layer of aramid weave to attempt this.
+1

PacSafe makes a fanny pack with the mesh in-between the fabric layers (in the waist strap)......a thief can slash all they want, but they won't get the bag/contents. The aramid weave is a good idea, but the wire mesh would be bomber.

I prefer the waterproof liner solution. This allows one to remove a clean bag (with the contents) at night, while leaving the dirty exterior panniers on the bike.

Lastly, what "Liter/bag" are you targeting?? It seems like the one of the complaints of the Wolfman Expeditions is that 19L/bag is too small. While the Rocky Mountains are huge. In my opinion, they make fantastic products, but I think something in-between these two sizes of bags would be ideal.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Breeze View Post
Lastly, what "Liter/bag" are you targeting?? It seems like the one of the complaints of the Wolfman Expeditions is that 19L/bag is too small. While the Rocky Mountains are huge. In my opinion, they make fantastic products, but I think something in-between these two sizes of bags would be ideal.
Something expandable (but not with a zipper) would be ideal. Maybe a gusset with a compression strap. Start off small, say 15 or so liters that you can cinch up but loosen the straps to it's full potential of say 35 liters.

Having the bag retain it's shape in both dimensions, not saggy would be #1.

I have a few ideas of how this would be accomplished, the simplest would be a few slide in sleeves for a hard perimeter. When compressed you pull out the hard perimeter from the expanded section and slide it into the other sleeve. When you want to expand it you do so and if you want to have the bag rigid while empty simply slide out the hard part from the first section that is housing a second ABS plastic sheet.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:47 PM   #23
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I've been using Ortleib QRL bags for several years and they check several of your boxes. I do like the idea of additional compartments (maybe two per bag) and the double layering seems like a plus too.

I rarely remove my bags, but it is real easy with the Ortleib system. And I would imagine they work on the vast majority of racks (I've used them on both HT and HB racks). You probably don't need to reinvent the wheel there.

The two biggest factors for me are 1) waterproof; and 2) ease of getting in and out of. Roll top bags are simple, effective, and quick to get in to. They also allow for easily adjusting the size based upon the load. But when you start adding additional mounting and cinching straps, it can make even getting into a simple bag a chore. I sold my old Wolfman duffel because I had to fuss with several straps just to grab something out of the bag. It was a good quality bag, but poorly executed, IMHO. Zippers are probably even more convenient, but I don't know that they seal as well.

Lastly, just a suggestion. You're getting lots of great ideas, but I hope you pick and choose carefully. Project creep will start ruining a good idea if you try to make the perfect bag that will make everybody happy. Make a bag that works, not one that checks everybody's boxes. You know the saying: don't let the great be the enemy of the good.

Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:57 PM   #24
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I don't have much to add other than my preference for a wider bag like ortlieb style. I think most anyone would agree that kriega makes the most bombproof well executed bags out there. The thing I dont like though is that they're long and skinny and what I want is always at the bottom.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:16 PM   #25
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I'm definitely sold on the two layer system with the bags.

I own the Kriega Overlander 30's now and one area that concerns me is the waterproof liner. Its is made from a very light weight material that I have concerns will get a hole punched through it eventually with packed items. I always try to attempt to keep sharp items in packages but it won't take much for tire irons, tools, air pump, or some other item that would rest against the liner and with offroading wear a hole through it due to the repeated bounces of the item against the liner. That's my fear anyway. It's much, much, thinner than a typical drybag. It's also not a one piece waterproof liner, but sewn together with seams that have seam sealer. Seam sealer deteriorates and needs replacing over time as we all know. I'd rather have a once piece liner/welded seams that needs no maintenance and made from thicker material for increased durability.

I would also like a pair of bags made about 20 liters per side that could be mounted without brackets.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:19 PM   #26
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i like soft bags and one thing i did add to my soft bags was a box or hard plastic insert so when they are empty they hold their shape. i used mine to get paint supplies so i found some plastic containers that fit the inside of the bags so on the way to the store they held their shape then i loaded them up with paint and suplies. with the liners i didnt have to worry about if the materials leaked since they were contained in a plastic box inside.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:22 PM   #27
tmotten
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Kriega liners are really durable. 2 something hundred denier cordura. But no waterproof liner is puncture resistant. No fabric really is.

I would like to see gore-tex liners personally. It's not that dear per metre.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:25 PM   #28
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i also like the throw over type with the adjustable velcro straps so i could throw them on and attach a zip ty to keep them from moving one up and the other down problem with uneven loads. it would be nice to have a hook on eack side to stabilize the bags from moving up and down instead of zip tys i used. just some thoughts.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:25 PM   #29
tmotten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters View Post
Lastly, just a suggestion. You're getting lots of great ideas, but I hope you pick and choose carefully. Project creep will start ruining a good idea if you try to make the perfect bag that will make everybody happy. Make a bag that works, not one that checks everybody's boxes. You know the saying: don't let the great be the enemy of the good.

Good luck and keep us posted.


Reading through people's suggestions and can already see conflicting things. Ease of use to me personally is less important than how it behaves when riding. But it depends how often you take things in and out and how much stuff you bring.

There is no ultimate setup. Every one has different priorities. Great for these forums because we can just keep going on about it.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmotten View Post
Kriega liners are really durable. 2 something hundred denier cordura. But no waterproof liner is puncture resistant. No fabric really is.

I would like to see gore-tex liners personally. It's not that dear per metre.
I hope indeed that you are correct. I've only got a few trips on the bags and every time I'm cramming items into the bag I have concerns about the liner. Time will tell and one mans "really durable" is another mans "barely adequate". I've found this out the hard way with products sadly destroyed through usage, not abuse. Items that others on the board have claimed as reliable.

I'll also echo your comment that racks are not an ideal solution and would enjoy a rackless solution to the bags in my ideal world.
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