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Old 10-17-2013, 01:20 AM   #31
HaChayalBoded
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Originally Posted by Butters View Post
I've been using Ortleib QRL bags for several years and they check several of your boxes. I do like the idea of additional compartments (maybe two per bag) and the double layering seems like a plus too.
You can add outer pockets this way.

http://www.ortliebusa.com/prodInfo.asp?pid=76&cid=2


http://www.thetouringstore.com/ORTLI...IES%20PAGE.htm
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:48 AM   #32
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I had never seen those before! Thanks
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:24 AM   #33
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Thanks for the feedback all. Some great ideas in here!

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Originally Posted by HaChayalBoded View Post
double layer is always better, we're not backpacking, no reason to go super light.

Also, for bags attached to the outside, perhaps have that be a custom option that can be retrofitted later on.

Something that would be really need would be to have the front and back outfitted with Molle webbing. 4-6 rows worth. Make up a few smaller sized pouches, maybe a fuel bottle holder with molle webbing and voila. More products in your catelogue and riders can pick and choose what they would like.

Can I get a set in OD green for my "Harley"
Great idea. Thanks! We just ordered some molle sticks to mess around with. Andrew has a good idea for incorporating these into the bag. More on that later. Thank you for the idea!!! (& cool bike)

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Originally Posted by FlowBee View Post
Any way you could laminate a PacSafe mesh bag between the two walls so the bags can be made slash resistant and lockable? That's pretty much the main reason people use hard bags - "security" when away from the bike.
Like the "pacsafe style" layer idea as an option. The double layer system would offer an opportunity to incorporate that layer between the liner and the outer bag. We'll take a look at this. Tmotten & Haychal: appreciate the input on inside vs outside and also developing our own alternative to pacsafe.

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Originally Posted by The Breeze View Post
+1
Lastly, what "Liter/bag" are you targeting?? It seems like the one of the complaints of the Wolfman Expeditions is that 19L/bag is too small. While the Rocky Mountains are huge. In my opinion, they make fantastic products, but I think something in-between these two sizes of bags would be ideal.
We're targeting something in between the wolfman expedition (38l combined) and the overlander 60l. Our original design came out at 57l which we decided was too big. So we adjusted the patterns, bringing it back down to around 50l including the outside pocket. We're working on an exterior storage solution for water and fuel, which increases the overall capacity. The roll top also increases the capacity if needed. We'll build in plenty of compression to bring it down tight to the bike if you're packing light.

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Originally Posted by HaChayalBoded View Post
Something expandable (but not with a zipper) would be ideal. Maybe a gusset with a compression strap. Start off small, say 15 or so liters that you can cinch up but loosen the straps to it's full potential of say 35 liters.

Having the bag retain it's shape in both dimensions, not saggy would be #1.

I have a few ideas of how this would be accomplished, the simplest would be a few slide in sleeves for a hard perimeter. When compressed you pull out the hard perimeter from the expanded section and slide it into the other sleeve. When you want to expand it you do so and if you want to have the bag rigid while empty simply slide out the hard part from the first section that is housing a second ABS plastic sheet.
The droopy vs larger size and compressibility vs internal stiffeners issues keep coming up with our prototypes. We like the idea of a folding or removable stiffener for compression/expansion possibilities. We'll mess around with this tomorrow. Thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters View Post
Roll top bags are simple, effective, and quick to get in to. They also allow for easily adjusting the size based upon the load. But when you start adding additional mounting and cinching straps, it can make even getting into a simple bag a chore.
We totally agree.

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Originally Posted by team ftb View Post
I'm definitely sold on the two layer system with the bags.

I own the Kriega Overlander 30's now and one area that concerns me is the waterproof liner. Its is made from a very light weight material that I have concerns will get a hole punched through it eventually with packed items. I always try to attempt to keep sharp items in packages but it won't take much for tire irons, tools, air pump, or some other item that would rest against the liner and with offroading wear a hole through it due to the repeated bounces of the item against the liner. That's my fear anyway. It's much, much, thinner than a typical drybag. It's also not a one piece waterproof liner, but sewn together with seams that have seam sealer. Seam sealer deteriorates and needs replacing over time as we all know. I'd rather have a once piece liner/welded seams that needs no maintenance and made from thicker material for increased durability.

I would also like a pair of bags made about 20 liters per side that could be mounted without brackets.
Thanks for this input. I particularly liked your point about a moto liner taking abuse not only from the outside (i.e. laying the bike down) but also from the inside (sharp, heavy, irregularly shaped items packed tight and moving around). Regarding the smaller rackless bags: we're on it. Next up is a rear duffle, then a rackless solution, then a tank bag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kubiak View Post
i like soft bags and one thing i did add to my soft bags was a box or hard plastic insert so when they are empty they hold their shape. i used mine to get paint supplies so i found some plastic containers that fit the inside of the bags so on the way to the store they held their shape then i loaded them up with paint and suplies. with the liners i didnt have to worry about if the materials leaked since they were contained in a plastic box inside.
We're working on this. We've been messing around with some prototypes. Stiffeners and compression tend to work against each other, but we have some ideas to work with, including one that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaChayalBoded View Post
Cool! I have to hand it to ortlieb, they make some really nice stuff. I hadn't seen this one either. thanks!
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:25 AM   #34
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Can't tell you guys how much we appreciate all this input. Seriously: THANK YOU!!!
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #35
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It seems I'm already a little late to the party, but I hate to say it, but you really should look closer at the Rocky Mountain bags and racks from Wolfmann. Here's why:

Dual layer waterproof. Internally coated nylon outer bag and a waterproof inner bag offer double the waterproof protection.

Structurally sound: They have fairly stiff plastic sheets velcroed to the inside walls and bottom. It protects the inside from abrasion, outside from puncture and even empty the bags look full and don't sag an inch.

Quick Release: I love the quick release mechanism they designed to work with the Wolfmann Racks, which sadly, they just announced they are no longer going to carry. You may want to see if you can take over their design! Bomber rack. Anyway, the rack has 4 slots on the corners for a simple metal "8" buckle to go in flat and then rotate 90deg and lock into place. Then you cinch the straps and done. To remove, you unweight the strap and flick the buckle and it pops off. Once sized, I can take the bags off just as fast as quick release mechanisms. 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,4 and lift the bags off the seat by the seat straps or handles.

The bags are just the right size to fit a DS helmet in them and close. I keep my helmet bag in there so I don't need the big liner bag with me. You'll want something so the plastic liner doesn't scratch the helmet

The plastic insides are velcroed in a way that you can collapse the bags pretty far so they sit nice and flat to the bike.

IMO they aren't really that big. They don't look disproportionate and hold just the right amount of stuff.

The inside bag was welded seams, but the outside bag wasn't. I found a small amount of water, small, in one of the bags after riding in rain for 3 hours on a trip. Nothing a little tent seam sealer can't fix.

Pics:



The extra rings on the top and bottom allow you to strap extra bags, folding chairs, tents, etc to it easily.





They stay structured like that with no load and the straps loose.



What I would like to see different: Internal and external small pockets for tools and sunglasses, or easy strap on accessories. The top of the bag or the small sides of the bag are the best locations. Something like velcro to temporarily hold the mouth of the bag to make it easier to roll up. When it's full, it's not always easy. A ziploc closure would be killer!
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #36
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The trunk of my car is starting to look like a bag designer’s. In this pic, I count six different bags by five different companies.



We have our first mockup from Chip and are making some changes. Our primary goal is to finalize the dimensions so we can move on to “features.” Some things we learned:

1) It’s too big. Our original design came in at 60+ liters for both panniers. It looks huge next to a bike, almost like a hard bag. So we’re trimming the size and adjusting our patterns, bringing the volume closer to 46 liters for both bags, 52 liters with pockets. Capacity can be increased using the roll-top, or decreased using compression straps.

2) Even with a smaller size, stiffeners and foam are needed to support the weight of the bag and its contents. For the next round we’re including an outer layer of abrasion fabric (34oz pvc) , a polyethylene protective panel/stiffener, foam for cushioning, and an inner liner to hold all these parts together. Plus we have our inner waterproof liner, so it’s a bit like making 5 bags at once.



3) Our exterior pocket is too small. We want to fit two 1 Liter MSR-style fuel bottles. That way the rider can carry an extra gallon of gas over two panniers. With our original design, two bottles would fit but one would rub the zipper, which could cause the zipper to fail over time. We’re also planning a second external fuel storage solution, so the rider can choose between using the main pocket for fuel or using it for tools & tubes.

4) Our roll top doesn’t work the way we hoped. Our first design featured a “teardrop” for the roll, which is something we see on a lot of nicer drybags. A teardrop reduces the extra material to be “rolled” in closing the bag. However this makes the bag’s throat so small that we can’t remove a fully stuffed liner. Plus it looks crappy. So we’re going back to a straight-throated bag for the next round.

Teardrop Throat



Straight-Throat


This is what my kitchen looks like after an afternoon of pattern revisions. I barely even knew what a “pattern” was a few months ago.



With the newly revised patterns, a bunch of changes, new fabric that’s closer to our final spec, and some added accessories like compression straps & buckles, we headed back to Chip’s for another round of cut & sew.



And then… because the weather’s sunny and the dirt’s perfect… we left the “office” early to enjoy it!



Next up: reviewing the revised prototype, adding exterior features, more focus on the mounting system, and starting on the duffle shape.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:10 AM   #37
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Good stuff! I really like the Kriega Overlander 60 concept; ie. using a qd mount on a TT rack, but what I'd really like to see is one big bag per side with liners you can pull out and take into a hotel quickly. The Kriega liners are velcroed in at the roll top, the Rocky Mountains work as separate roll down bags.

Basically what I'm hoping you're working towards is something like the Rocky Mountains with a Kriega style backing plate so I don't need a strap over the seat.

PS. 60l doesn't look that big on a big GS pig. And they are heavy enough already, which is one reason I'm looking at soft luggage.

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Old 10-18-2013, 12:36 PM   #38
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Basically what I'm hoping you're working towards is something like the Rocky Mountains with a Kriega style backing plate so I don't need a strap over the seat.
Yea, what he said! Doesn't have to be a plate, but more of a frame if you use internal stiffeners. It could clamp through to the internal stiffeners if you don't want them to be removable.

I wouldn't be afraid to make a hybrid bag either. Nobody has yet, but a good blend of hard structure with collapsability would surely get you a uniquely crafted product for our needs. It might get expensive on the investment side if you want to sell tons for a family mold for the parts. I guess it depends upon the design...

How about some PVC plates that are hinged and then you can attach a bag inside the frame. Some straps and it collapses. Takes a beating and protects the bag off road. Some nifty attachments can get stuck to the outside real easy using quick release features. It would support weight lashed to any side of it, even a gas can attached to the "bag." You can put some straps across the bottom plates to hold the bag, or just about anything!





Man, I should go into business! My finders fee is a finished bag!
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:54 PM   #39
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.....Man, I should go into business! My finders fee is a finished bag!
How do the top and bottom work? Would it break your leg if you got it trapped under while paddling?
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:58 PM   #40
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Well I was thinking of a roll bag style inner bag because of the way it collapses. It wouldn't be any worse for safety than a hard case and would still rotate and need the bag or straps so it doesn't fold flat. Maybe straps on the bottom that go corner to corner. If the inner bag just slides in, a few clips on top to hold the bag in and hold structure. If the roll bag ends clipped together for a handle, that would work. You could build the function and modularity into the shell and have different inner and outer gear for different purposes... Tools, clothes, food, etc.

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Old 10-21-2013, 09:42 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by btao View Post
It seems I'm already a little late to the party, but I hate to say it, but you really should look closer at the Rocky Mountain bags and racks from Wolfmann. Here's why:

Dual layer waterproof. Internally coated nylon outer bag and a waterproof inner bag offer double the waterproof protection.

Structurally sound: They have fairly stiff plastic sheets velcroed to the inside walls and bottom. It protects the inside from abrasion, outside from puncture and even empty the bags look full and don't sag an inch.

Quick Release: I love the quick release mechanism they designed to work with the Wolfmann Racks, which sadly, they just announced they are no longer going to carry. You may want to see if you can take over their design! Bomber rack. Anyway, the rack has 4 slots on the corners for a simple metal "8" buckle to go in flat and then rotate 90deg and lock into place. Then you cinch the straps and done. To remove, you unweight the strap and flick the buckle and it pops off. Once sized, I can take the bags off just as fast as quick release mechanisms. 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,4 and lift the bags off the seat by the seat straps or handles.

The bags are just the right size to fit a DS helmet in them and close. I keep my helmet bag in there so I don't need the big liner bag with me. You'll want something so the plastic liner doesn't scratch the helmet

The plastic insides are velcroed in a way that you can collapse the bags pretty far so they sit nice and flat to the bike.

IMO they aren't really that big. They don't look disproportionate and hold just the right amount of stuff.

The inside bag was welded seams, but the outside bag wasn't. I found a small amount of water, small, in one of the bags after riding in rain for 3 hours on a trip. Nothing a little tent seam sealer can't fix.


The extra rings on the top and bottom allow you to strap extra bags, folding chairs, tents, etc to it easily.


They stay structured like that with no load and the straps loose.


What I would like to see different: Internal and external small pockets for tools and sunglasses, or easy strap on accessories. The top of the bag or the small sides of the bag are the best locations. Something like velcro to temporarily hold the mouth of the bag to make it easier to roll up. When it's full, it's not always easy. A ziploc closure would be killer!
Thanks for this detailed review! Much appreciated. Especially the suggestions of:

- More external storage
- Velcro on the opening

Any other areas we could improve on with these?
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:51 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Three Dawg View Post
Good stuff! I really like the Kriega Overlander 60 concept; ie. using a qd mount on a TT rack, but what I'd really like to see is one big bag per side with liners you can pull out and take into a hotel quickly. The Kriega liners are velcroed in at the roll top, the Rocky Mountains work as separate roll down bags.

Basically what I'm hoping you're working towards is something like the Rocky Mountains with a Kriega style backing plate so I don't need a strap over the seat.

PS. 60l doesn't look that big on a big GS pig. And they are heavy enough already, which is one reason I'm looking at soft luggage.
We hear this message loud and clear on the mounting system. We have a solution in development right now that is so, so cool. I'm really excited about it. It'll be totally bomber construction and really easy on/off, plus will fit any existing rack. I just want to get it a little further along in development before committing to it.

For size: we want to design a bag for riders who are doing multi day/week/month offroad trips in the backcountry using relatively lightweight camping gear (i.e. tent/stove/bag/pad). With that in mind, we'll also feature a roll top, expandable external storage, and compression so the bags can be adapted for shorter/longer trips with more/less gear. We thought the 50l size would be a good midrange, while recognizing that no one size is going to be absolutely perfect for all riders. If it looks a little big on a small bike and a little small on a big bike, then we're probably in the right zone. The external storage is going to make a big difference I think.

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Old 10-21-2013, 09:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by btao View Post
Yea, what he said! Doesn't have to be a plate, but more of a frame if you use internal stiffeners. It could clamp through to the internal stiffeners if you don't want them to be removable.

I wouldn't be afraid to make a hybrid bag either. Nobody has yet, but a good blend of hard structure with collapsability would surely get you a uniquely crafted product for our needs. It might get expensive on the investment side if you want to sell tons for a family mold for the parts. I guess it depends upon the design...

How about some PVC plates that are hinged and then you can attach a bag inside the frame. Some straps and it collapses. Takes a beating and protects the bag off road. Some nifty attachments can get stuck to the outside real easy using quick release features. It would support weight lashed to any side of it, even a gas can attached to the "bag." You can put some straps across the bottom plates to hold the bag, or just about anything!





Man, I should go into business! My finders fee is a finished bag!
Cool idea! Thanks so much for the detailed illustrations. I'll talk to andrew about this today, he has a really good instinct for what will/won't work with bag compression, and also the molding/manufacturing questions. Our current proto uses stiffeners on the front and back with foam inserts on the side, and it seems to be holding its shape exceptionally well when empty while still compressing smoothly and cleanly, which is good news.

Your finders fee proposal is accepted if we go this route . thanks for the unique idea!!
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:01 AM   #44
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We hear this message loud and clear on the mounting system. We have a solution in development right now that is so, so cool. I'm really excited about it. It'll be totally bomber construction and really easy on/off, plus will fit any existing rack. I just want to get it a little further along in development before committing to it.

For size: we want to design a bad for riders who are doing multi day/week/month offroad trips in the backcountry using relatively lightweight camping gear (i.e. tent/stove/bag/pad). With that in mind, we'll also feature a roll top, expandable external storage, and compression so the bags can be adapted for shorter/longer trips with more/less gear. We thought the 50l size would be a good midrange, while recognizing that no one size is going to be absolutely perfect for all riders. If it looks a little big on a small bike and a little small on a big bike, then we're probably in the right zone. The external storage is going to make a big difference I think.
Great! Watching this with interest.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:26 PM   #45
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Cool, cool. Yea, the external storage would be great, and modularity is also great, but will test the construction to keep it water tight.

So, another suggestion for the brain pool: How many owners of any bag, any at all, that have to give a wonder of what to do with all the extra strap lengths that are left over. You can go the clip route like Wolfman for a clean look, but it's sometimes a pain, especially if it's cold, rainy and you're wearing say, motorcycle gloves to try to slide all 4 cinch straps in those little slide clips... Why couldn't there be a patch of Industrial Velcro or Velcro Dual-Lock sewn to the end of the straps and then a few strategic Velcro patches added to the bag so when you are loading all your gear in the rain, you can zip... zip the cincher straps and then just stick it to the side of the bag and never worry about them flapping in the breeze?

You could test the mud retention of the velcros to see what would work best where.
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