ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Beasts
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-02-2014, 07:00 PM   #406
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
who every said there is a issue is mistaken.
That would be the, um, engineers who designed the mounting points for attaching the plate then who have it all wrong? They did pretty well on the rest of the bike. I wonder how they messed up on this?

I'm guessing that they put more stress analysis into those mounting points than just setting it on a box and saying it's all good.

It isn't a skid plate, it's a gravel guard.

Without additional bracing to a point other than soft aluminum the OEM mounting points alone shouldn't be used to support the weight of the bike, static or moving.

You should keep this in mind while rallying.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.


MotoTex screwed with this post 05-02-2014 at 07:06 PM
MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 07:03 PM   #407
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by baja dad View Post
no white flour food items
ftfy
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 07:31 PM   #408
TufelHunden
Recovering A-hole
 
TufelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: colorado springs
Oddometer: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
That would be the, um, engineers who designed the mounting points for attaching the plate then who have it all wrong? They did pretty well on the rest of the bike. I wonder how they messed up on this?

I'm guessing that they put more stress analysis into those mounting points than just setting it on a box and saying it's all good.

It isn't a skid plate, it's a gravel guard.

Without additional bracing to a point other than soft aluminum the OEM mounting points alone shouldn't be used to support the weight of the bike, static or moving.

You should keep this in mind while rallying.
Not trying to call you out or anything but how many examples do we have of this actually causing damage on this bike? I would be very interested to know as so many folks seem really wrapped around the axle on this issue. Thanks for the input either way.
TufelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 08:37 PM   #409
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by TufelHunden View Post
Not trying to call you out or anything but how many examples do we have of this actually causing damage on this bike? I would be very interested to know as so many folks seem really wrapped around the axle on this issue. Thanks for the input either way.
Just been riding dirt bikes for 45 years or so. I know what a skid plate can be used for when it is mounted to a frame.

I also know how fragile aluminum can be when bolts threaded into it are exposed to shear forces. The aluminum will give before the steel bolt will.

My KTM 950 has a skid plate. My Suzuki DRZ has a skid plate. My Tiger has a gravel guard.

I don't get the Tiger into situations where I might have to depend on the engine-mounted guard to skid over a log, rock, or other obstacle like I can on those other bikes with plates engineered to transfer the forces to the frame and away from the engine they are installed to protect.

Give it a whirl at your convenience. If the aluminum holding the mounting bolts give way to the forces don't say nobody ever told you.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 09:07 PM   #410
Baja Dad OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Baja Dad's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Norco California
Oddometer: 1,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Just been riding dirt bikes for 45 years or so. I know what a skid plate can be used for when it is mounted to a frame.

I also know how fragile aluminum can be when bolts threaded into it are exposed to shear forces. The aluminum will give before the steel bolt will.

My KTM 950 has a skid plate. My Suzuki DRZ has a skid plate. My Tiger has a gravel guard.

I don't get the Tiger into situations where I might have to depend on the engine-mounted guard to skid over a log, rock, or other obstacle like I can on those other bikes with plates engineered to transfer the forces to the frame and away from the engine they are installed to protect.

Give it a whirl at your convenience. If the aluminum holding the mounting bolts give way to the forces don't say nobody ever told you.

Well then I guess All the hours I have been in developing this bike with Triumph and all the rocks and logs that we have went over are just my imagination

We are not using the stock gravel guard as you call it'
This skid plate on this bike is designed specifically for what it's intended for
And sitting on the box isn't hurting anything

I also have been riding dirt bikes for over 45 years
I think I know a thing or two
__________________
2014 support: GPR,IMS Aurora Rally Kriega, Raiden LS2,100Goggles,SIDI,Seat Concepts, Rally Raid Products UK,Precision Concepts, MX1West,Dunlop
Baja Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 10:11 AM   #411
live2ridetahoe
RN
 
live2ridetahoe's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Concord, CA
Oddometer: 1,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Just been riding dirt bikes for 45 years or so. I know what a skid plate can be used for when it is mounted to a frame.

I also know how fragile aluminum can be when bolts threaded into it are exposed to shear forces. The aluminum will give before the steel bolt will.

My KTM 950 has a skid plate. My Suzuki DRZ has a skid plate. My Tiger has a gravel guard.

I don't get the Tiger into situations where I might have to depend on the engine-mounted guard to skid over a log, rock, or other obstacle like I can on those other bikes with plates engineered to transfer the forces to the frame and away from the engine they are installed to protect.

Give it a whirl at your convenience. If the aluminum holding the mounting bolts give way to the forces don't say nobody ever told you.
I think the "bolts" that hold the Tiger skid plate on will just sheer if the plate is hit hard enough. The bolts consist of two threaded ends with a rubber bushing in the middle. I think they engineered the plate and bolts this way to prevent case damage.

BTW, love the build.

Any news on when Rally Raid is going to be releasing their side racks? I need to order some asap and like their design the best.

JG
live2ridetahoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 09:05 PM   #412
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
I also have been riding dirt bikes for over 45 years
I think I know a thing or two
Just sayin' it wouldn't be that tough to design a more robust plate that ties into the frame at three or four points.

What you are doing is certainly the best way to find out what works. Not saying you can't get away with it this way, only that it is more vulnerable than a frame-mounted plate would be. (or a plate with a sub-frame)

I've damaged enough of the frame mounted ones on bikes that weighed much less to realize the Tiger mounts might not take the same sort of hit as well. Even if the bolts will shear, I'd rather have a plate that would just to the job, rather than come loose in a sacrificial act.

Not dissin' your build. It is very inspiring, and I've followed this thread since the beginning. Just pointing out what looks like a soft spot that could be toughened up.

You've done so many wonderful things to make these bikes bulletproof. I'd love to see one of the vendors find a way to address this point better than current offerings have.

I'm hoping to someday see something like the KTM plate in the photo below. This is a level of magnitude more robust. Engineered to protect an underslung aluminum engine. Just like on the Tiger. The model that this fits won Dakar it's first time out.



For the Tiger a plate with a sub-frame could be engineered to tie into the frame bolts on either side as part of an integrated protection system for skid and side case covers.

Sincerely wish you the best in the events you have planned.

Love the bikes and can't wait to see how well they do.

__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 09:31 AM   #413
ram1000
Beastly Adventurer
 
ram1000's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Tricities Washington
Oddometer: 1,829
My experiences are similar and I no longer trust a motorcycle with no wrap around frame. I crushed the frame on a DR650 when I landed on a rock and the rock literally ripped the skid plate back 1 1/2 inches even reforming the plate where it used to sweep around the frame. The motor was untouched. I don't travel on such rough surfaces with my Triumph partly because I don't want the cost of repairing such extreme possibilities. I replaced the plastic plate with a Moose skid plate on the XC but I suspect if the plastic/poly plate was wider it would suffice as good as the Moose plate since it is bolted on with cast tabs on the sump.
__________________
A good adventure bike will get you to where you wish you had a good dirt bike! (and back)
:2014 XC800 :2012 WR450
ram1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2014, 11:25 AM   #414
Baja Dad OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Baja Dad's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Norco California
Oddometer: 1,926
You are both on the better path.
I did some rough testing on a design like the ktm pic above
But I lost over 1.5 inch of ground clearance.
and that is a BIG loss!!!!
the Rally Raid UK skid plate has the BEST of both worlds
__________________
2014 support: GPR,IMS Aurora Rally Kriega, Raiden LS2,100Goggles,SIDI,Seat Concepts, Rally Raid Products UK,Precision Concepts, MX1West,Dunlop
Baja Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 06:08 AM   #415
Meteos
Adventurer
 
Meteos's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: Republic of Miami
Oddometer: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram1000 View Post
My experiences are similar and I no longer trust a motorcycle with no wrap around frame. I crushed the frame on a DR650 when I landed on a rock and the rock literally ripped the skid plate back 1 1/2 inches even reforming the plate where it used to sweep around the frame. The motor was untouched. I don't travel on such rough surfaces with my Triumph partly because I don't want the cost of repairing such extreme possibilities. I replaced the plastic plate with a Moose skid plate on the XC but I suspect if the plastic/poly plate was wider it would suffice as good as the Moose plate since it is bolted on with cast tabs on the sump.
But....more importantly, have you been RIDING FOR MORE THAN 45 YEARS!
Meteos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 07:30 AM   #416
Mikehusa
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Mikehusa's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Location: Bellefonte, PA
Oddometer: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Just sayin' it wouldn't be that tough to design a more robust plate that ties into the frame at three or four points.

What you are doing is certainly the best way to find out what works. Not saying you can't get away with it this way, only that it is more vulnerable than a frame-mounted plate would be. (or a plate with a sub-frame)

I've damaged enough of the frame mounted ones on bikes that weighed much less to realize the Tiger mounts might not take the same sort of hit as well. Even if the bolts will shear, I'd rather have a plate that would just to the job, rather than come loose in a sacrificial act.

Not dissin' your build. It is very inspiring, and I've followed this thread since the beginning. Just pointing out what looks like a soft spot that could be toughened up.



You've done so many wonderful things to make these bikes bulletproof. I'd love to see one of the vendors find a way to address this point better than current offerings have.

I'm hoping to someday see something like the KTM plate in the photo below. This is a level of magnitude more robust. Engineered to protect an underslung aluminum engine. Just like on the Tiger. The model that this fits won Dakar it's first time out.



For the Tiger a plate with a sub-frame could be engineered to tie into the frame bolts on either side as part of an integrated protection system for skid and side case covers.

Sincerely wish you the best in the events you have planned.

Love the bikes and can't wait to see how well they do.

Mototex.....

I can say I was leery about the mounting point of the skid plate. I installed a Altrider skid plate that uses the stock mounting points. Not disagreeing with you but I think it is much more robust than it appears to be. I am on my second skid plate because I destroyed my first one dropping off a ledge and casing it on a boulder then kicking up a loaf of bread sized rock that launched me over the handlebars. The issue I had was the stock bracket nuts that the plate screws into that are welded on broke free so trying to remove the two front bolts was impossible until I could squeeze my mig in there a re-tack them. My second plate is already pretty beat up from rocks and wheeling over fallen logs.
Mikehusa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 12:43 PM   #417
ram1000
Beastly Adventurer
 
ram1000's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Tricities Washington
Oddometer: 1,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteos View Post
But....more importantly, have you been RIDING FOR MORE THAN 45 YEARS!
Coincidentally I have been riding for 51 years and most of those were in the deserts of Southern California and a little motox racing included. The last 12-15 years have been trailing and road riding at about 10k per year.
__________________
A good adventure bike will get you to where you wish you had a good dirt bike! (and back)
:2014 XC800 :2012 WR450
ram1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 01:06 PM   #418
Meteos
Adventurer
 
Meteos's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: Republic of Miami
Oddometer: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram1000 View Post
Coincidentally I have been riding for 51 years and most of those were in the deserts of Southern California and a little motox racing included. The last 12-15 years have been trailing and road riding at about 10k per year.
Great! Then join the pissing match!
Meteos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 08:36 PM   #419
TufelHunden
Recovering A-hole
 
TufelHunden's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: colorado springs
Oddometer: 185
Just look what I started. I was really asking if there were any actual/know instances of someone trashing the bike with something like the Altrider plate installed. If there are none so far then I would say that we would be in pretty good shape. Of course aluminum is softer than steel or an oil pan made of depleted uranium but if we built everything for every possibility then every bike would weigh 50 tons. So realistically in the vast majority of situations the vast majority of us will ride in, is a "sump mounted" plate sufficient?

So with that said again, does anyone have firsthand experience in which the bash plate broke the sump etc? If so how common is this? Is it really worth any worry or $1.5 million in R&D to develop a bulletproof solution? Empirical evidence is appreciated.

meant sump mounted not frame.

TufelHunden screwed with this post 05-06-2014 at 08:19 AM
TufelHunden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 09:05 PM   #420
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by TufelHunden View Post
So realistically in the vast majority of situations the vast majority of us will ride in, is a "frame mounted" plate sufficient?
So, realistically, in the vast majority of situations most Tiger 800 riders will ride, it is an adornment, and will work perfectly for that purpose.

A basic understanding of the strength of various metals, whether acquired by experience or skoolin' will speak for itself.

Put the full weight of a pig like the Tiger (or a KTM 950 Adventure) on the plate at speed against an immovable object and something is more likely to give if it is bolted to a material such as aluminum.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to grasp this. Only someone who has punished sturdier skid plates on bikes that tip the scales at 60% of the weight of the Tiger.

Realistically, less than one percent of one percent of Tiger owners will ever find themselves in a position to test this for a number of reasons. One being rider skill (both the good and bad kind) and second is the fact that the Tiger really isn't a full-on dirt bike on steroids like the big KTM's are. It is very well adapted to the role, but wasn't designed for it from the drawing board. The gear ratios and power delivery don't make it easy to get into the situations the test will require, except in the hands of highly competent riders who have significantly modified the bike the way BajaDad has.

If you want to be realistic, there it is.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 04:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014