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Old 10-28-2013, 02:09 PM   #16
mud
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I used to own a Suzuki RG500. The clutches on them are less than stellar. As soon as you started to build the motor, you had to be pretty careful with the clutch. The other issue was it was a close ratio box and first was REALLY high..... Don't worry, I have a point.

We would take the clutch hub and drill a bunch of holes in the trough where the plates would run. This did a few things, smoothed out the action and kept the clutch much more clean from contaminants. Clutch life was much better with these mods. Not that we have a durability issue, but it may help with smoothing out the action.

Maybe something to try.....



Like this but smaller holes.
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mud screwed with this post 10-28-2013 at 02:17 PM
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:13 PM   #17
KrAzyOSUcOwBoY
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'Bene, I see you revised the orig post and further commented on the heavy mineral oil in the clutch master. When I changed the fluid I did a complete change, back bleed from the slave up. If there was any dilution in the slave, it was minimal.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
I was on a gasser with the ATF and it was closer to my 4RT in clutch feel with the ELF, but with my wife riding the Honda HP Transmission Oil 80w/85w was much slower and with her experience being so much less than mine it has been better for her to run the non ATF.

I figure as she gets better and comes up in class she will be ok with changing out to something else, however it is a little thick when cold and I think the Maxima 75W Extra Light would be just a little less fluid pull one first start.

Tell then she gets what is working for her, want to keep her feeling confident on the bike...
You got me there. Individuality in bikes matters. Gotta match the oil to the application. I had to add some 20W50 motor oil to my ATF+4 recently when I put thinner oil in my clutch master cylinder to slow down the clutch.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mud View Post
I used to own a Suzuki RG500. The clutches on them are less than stellar. As soon as you started to build the motor, you had to be pretty careful with the clutch. The other issue was it was a close ratio box and first was REALLY high..... Don't worry, I have a point.

We would take the clutch hub and drill a bunch of holes in the trough where the plates would run. This did a few things, smoothed out the action and kept the clutch much more clean from contaminants. Clutch life was much better with these mods. Not that we have a durability issue, but it may help with smoothing out the action.

Maybe something to try.....



Like this but smaller holes.
CSP make clutch hubs for Sherco and Beta with improved fluid flow along those lines.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
'Bene, I see you revised the orig post and further commented on the heavy mineral oil in the clutch master. When I changed the fluid I did a complete change, back bleed from the slave up. If there was any dilution in the slave, it was minimal.
It's just a trifling detail, but I'm not sure you can do a full exchange through the bleeder.

When I rebuilt my Gasser, I popped the 'top-hat' piston off (the slave piston) to inspect the o-ring and see what they were made of (Buna-N). I noticed the bleeder, so it won't get knocked off, is well uphill of the slave cylinder and the single passage leading to it. I discovered it could be quite hard to bleed the slave without filling the top hat and pushing it on.

The 4RT may be the same way, as in having only one hole down there. It's possible the casting bulge in the upper left view of page 4-39 of the 2005 manual is a bleeder passage on top of a second passage to the brake line. You can see the bleeder is offset from the brake line, so maybe HRC does have 2 holes to the slave.

No way to know without pulling the cover and looking very carefully. If it's like the GasGas Pro, you cannot do a full exchange by pushing fluid into the bleeder, or even flowing down. It'll take a bit of riding to blend the trapped oil into the newer oil. And that's no big deal. You sure don't want to be messing with the slave on the HRC, as it has a pressed-in thrust bearing.

When I did my GasGas I did a 100% exchange to the thicker mineral oil by filling the top hat with oil then pushing it on until the oil was solid up to the brake line and bleeder. The lever was gluey feeling. Since you did not do a 100% exchange, your mineral oil probably blended out in viscosity to something in between the thick and thin stuff. I put in the Redline Like Water, and now have a mix of heavy mineral oil and the very thin ester-based suspension fluid.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
CSP make clutch hubs for Sherco and Beta with improved fluid flow along those lines.
Laser, that CSP clutch assembly is just beautiful! Are you thinking of improved oil flow because of the holes through the outer basket?

As for the holes through the inner basket like your Suzuki, mud, Ron Lee says he was doing that on his Beta... the one with the really nice clutch. For oil to flow through the basket out through the released plates, the basket itself has to have passages into it from the back or front.

The GasGas clutch gets oil flow through the outside or front, through the gaps in the 10 triangle plates that rocker the lift plate against the basket and Bellvile washer. It's a pretty good flow-through design - or so it seems. There may be a tendency to fling most of the oil out, or it could work like a pump.

On the typical coil-spring clutch, the inner hub front and back is pretty covered over by the 'lift' plate, clutch plates, and outer basket. Unless there are oil passages into this space when assembled, the oil flow issue might be one of perception is reality as the clutch is spinning fast. Oiling may be primary external and by splash.

The 4RT has a pretty covered over clutch. At least it looks that way from the manual photos. When spinning fast, the oiling might be simply whatever thin films get in there, and that's how it is intended to work.

I wish we could see a video of a clutch working dynamically in its oil bath. Funny, there are a gazillion of them of them, yet the number of humans on earth that have ever directly observed the oiling could probably be counted on one hand.

motobene screwed with this post 10-28-2013 at 03:12 PM
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:21 PM   #22
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I know, CSP make some nice stuff. I couldn't find a pic of the inner hub, but I think it has holes too. As you probably noticed, they cut slots at the top of the basket fingers to improve flow as well.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:35 PM   #23
mud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
The 4RT has a pretty covered over clutch. At least it looks that way from the manual photos. When spinning fast, the oiling might be simply whatever thin films get in there, and that's how it is intended to work.

I wish we could see a video of a clutch working dynamically in its oil bath. Funny, there are a gazillion of them of them, yet the number of humans on earth that have ever directly observed the oiling could probably be counted on one hand.
Yeah, I don't remember what the clutch looks like, my Husaberg I do, but not the Montesa....

I may take it apart to try the 4 spring with ELF (I still have some as well). I will take a look at the rest of it when I do.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
CSP make clutch hubs for Sherco and Beta with improved fluid flow along those lines.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:44 PM   #25
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I got my 2005 4RT this summer. I have no idea what clutch plates are in it. What is the difference between the '05 and '06 plates? Are the newer ones worth the cost of changing? I am a Novice to Intermediate rider.

Thanks
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
Brewtus, it appeared and was suggested by others that this was a factory change for 2008 and we were looking for the easy simple fixes first.. Seemed like a small improvement when installed, but not really sure. More fluid volume for sure but no change in bore diameter and no real geometry change at the lever makes me wonder if there is any real advantage here. On the bright side I have a spare.

Okay. Not really sure I've seen it, but I'll take your word for it.

Any thoughts on the HRC factory mods seen on Bou's and Fuji's bikes? For instance the 315-ish slave cylinder mods seen here on the latest factory 4RT's -





And the absence of the production 4RT slave-cylinder hose and assembly on the RH cover here-




Ours, and no other production 4RT is like this. Go look at your 4RT, you'll see. The devil is in the details....
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brewtus screwed with this post 10-28-2013 at 06:51 PM Reason: Ish. 315-ish. Get it right, ya devil!
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:04 PM   #27
mud
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Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
Okay. Not really sure I've seen it, but I'll take your word for it.

Any thoughts on the HRC factory mods seen on Bou's and Fuji's bikes? For instance the 315-ish slave cylinder mods seen here on the latest factory 4RT's -





And the absence of the production 4RT slave-cylinder hose and assembly on the RH cover here-




Ours, and no other production 4RT is like this. Go look at your 4RT, you'll see. The devil is in the details....
There where SO many things to look at in that article.....

I am not quite sure what twin plugs gain you, so no comment.

The clutch though. With the slave on the primary side you have direct influence on the clutch actuation, not through some kind of mechanism.... I would think it would have better feedback.
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mud screwed with this post 10-28-2013 at 07:09 PM
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
Brewtus, it appeared and was suggested by others that this was a factory change for 2008 and we were looking for the easy simple fixes first.. Seemed like a small improvement when installed, but not really sure. More fluid volume for sure but no change in bore diameter and no real geometry change at the lever makes me wonder if there is any real advantage here. On the bright side I have a spare.
I was told that the geometry of the lever is different. I haven't double checked.
I bought a 2006 4RT a few years ago to replace my Beta Rev 270 that I had ridden for several years. I struggled initially with the Montesa, but I was determined to have a four stroke. I had trouble controlling the power off idle. The narrow clutch engagement made it worse and the tall gearing contributed to my stalling the engine too frequently. The biggest improvement I made was lowering the gearing. I have settled on 9x42 teeth. The next biggest improvement for me was changing the ECU. I bought a programmable throttle body and tried several programs but I settled on the stock 2007 map that came in the throttle body. The 315 master cylinder was a small improvement but my stock MC was leaking anyway.
I'm 57 years old, 200#, upper intermediate level rider competing at moderate elevations in both wet and dry conditions.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your suspension setup. Please include your rider weight.
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lamotovita screwed with this post 10-29-2013 at 07:15 AM
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #29
Sting32
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Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Interesting! The ELF is apparently light stuff and the stinky may mean friction modifiers. Given you have ELF you'd be a great test case. ELF and your six springs, then keep the ELF and so the -2 springs, then later at the oil change try the Silkolene 10W40 synthetic, then later some other oils. Be nice to know if the ELF is really doing something significant, or if it voodoo smoke. Be nice to know how no ELF and 4 springs compares.

BTW the gassers really like the ATFs. I've been using generic synthetic ATF+4 a long time. Save$.
Bene, seems the 4rt concurs with gasgas, and viscosity effect of transmission oils modifications to clutch feel?

for comparison only, not trying to hijack thread at all... On the gasgas the shipment that my dads bike came in I presume, but maybe all (lol) came with totally new master cylinders for front brakes and the clutch, the clutch side piston seems to have grown in size, like you explained that you hoped was opposite on the 08 honda part. side affects concur with what had hoped for, as well, since you have gasgas... as the clutch fully disengages more now, but ever so slightly more harder pull, than my 12.

just thought I would share that, have KraZy keep practicing! see you guys at some event somewhere soon I hope.
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:27 AM   #30
KrAzyOSUcOwBoY
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There seems to be a fair amount of possible misinformation about the 4rt out there. Just to be clear, there is no geometry change on the 315 master. I checked them side by side and transferred the lever from the original to the 315 unit. I did have to move the adjuster from the top threaded hole on the lever to the bottom.

With the 06 plates, I am unsure there is a difference as I haven't seen the parts list for 06 to compare part numbers. I do have the 05 and 09 parts manuals and the numbers are the same for both frictions and steels and in facts the two lists are identical on all the clutch parts, inner basket, outer, lifter plate, springs, etc. I was told by the original owner of my bike that he made the switch and I have he original steels but I haven't had the clutch far enough apart to compare the two.

Those pictures of the works bike are really interesting and the slave is on the opposite side. Lots of design change to do that. Wonder if it uses a completely different clutch with a push rod that goes through the clutch center from the opposite side like the Ktm RFS bikes. Not likely its a change we could make to our bikes.

Of all the changes made to date on my 05 the spring change to reduce from 6 to 4 was by far the most dramatic and is working best (to date, may still try others) with 10-40 Silkolene full synthetic m/c oil in the gear box.

The fork and shock mods are really working well, really sped up the suspension for a much livelier feel. The faster rebound on both ends really helps with front lift over small obsticals and the rear unloads much better for double blips and zaps. I weigh 185 no gear. 'Bene completely documented the changes to the shock internals and may offer that service for others for a price in the future.

Regarding the mapping on the FI, I do not have the mappable throttle body. My stock 05 is really quick of the bottom but flattens out quickly. Not really good when this newbie has a case of the whiskey throttle but I'm getting better at controlling that.
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