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Old 10-30-2013, 07:56 AM   #46
BEEF706
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Bene, I don't even own a 4RT, but I am fascinated with the level of care and documentation that you use in these threads. Good look, and keep sharing, there are a WHOLE lot of guys in our club that love these bikes and will be eager to apply the results i bet.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:25 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
brewtus, I researched the Sureflex when you mentioned it many months ago, but couldn't find any availibility. If you know a source, please let me know as I would consider that possibility when or if I need to go further. For now I intend to continue working with the 4 spring mod and may try 3, and testing other oil possibilities. Its so much better I'll probably just ride it at least til its time for fresh fluid.
What about that Mitani stuff? Are those plates? If kits include springs take care as many after-market kits make the 'heavy duty' error on too-stiff springs. Wouldn't hurt to have other choices to play with though, especially when using 3 or 4 springs.

What makes a spring stiffer? You can tell by eyeballing them if you know what to look for. Certainly by measuring them with calipers.

First and foremost (to the 4th power in the equation for spring rate) is wire diameter. Second is the mean diameter (to the third power). Mean diameter is simply the outside diameter minus the wire diameter. Then there are the number of active coils. Active coils are simply those that are not coil bound during operation. Sometimes forks springs, for example, have a few closed-up coils at the ends.

No other variables factor in other than material shear modulus. Given springs are almost always made of spring steel, shear modulus just a another constant in the equation. Spring length doesn't factor in other than you often have more coils in a longer spring. So stiffer springs tend to have fatter wire, be smaller in diameter, and have fewer coils.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:34 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEEF706 View Post
Bene, I don't even own a 4RT, but I am fascinated with the level of care and documentation that you use in these threads. Good look, and keep sharing, there are a WHOLE lot of guys in our club that love these bikes and will be eager to apply the results i bet.
Well thanks, Beef! I do appreciate you saying that.
When I go looking for info on whatever, I generally find the web to be frustrating scattered and un detailed. My aim is to gather the bits together and through long experience have them make good sense.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:43 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
What makes a spring stiffer? You can tell by eyeballing them if you know what to look for. Certainly by measuring them with calipers.

First and foremost (to the 4th power in the equation for spring rate) is wire diameter. Second is the mean diameter (to the third power). Mean diameter is simply the outside diameter minus the wire diameter. Then there are the number of active coils. Active coils are simply those that are not coil bound during operation. Sometimes forks springs, for example, have a few closed-up coils at the ends.

No other variables factor in other than material shear modulus. Given springs are almost always made of spring steel, shear modulus just a another constant in the equation. Spring length doesn't factor in other than you often have more coils in a longer spring. So stiffer springs tend to have fatter wire, be smaller in diameter, and have fewer coils.
Do you have a formula for converting spring dimensions (fork in this case) to a rate that can be compared to available springs?
On a different bike I want to find softer fork springs but I don't know the rate of the current springs (they are straight rate) and don't have access to other springs for comparison.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:07 AM   #50
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The spring constant k is found by inverting Hooke's Law: K = F/(length free-Length deformed)

It's easy to measure shock springs cause there short and wide, fork springs can be tricky and really need a jig, (You can use a 1 1/2" PVC sleeve to support the spring (maybe 85-% of it anyway - depending on the weight you use) from sliding out from under the weight as long as the weight doesnt bottom against it) although I have done it free hand and only smashed my fingers half a dozen times with the 40 lb hand weight I was using. Probably wont get a NIST Calibration award, but usually good enough to differentiate the selection of available springs.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:35 AM   #51
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I wish I lived closer I would consider bring the hole bike over and have you help me rework it.

Would have cash in hand... if only.

But sense I can't bring the hole bike without having an extended trip out. I figure I will have to do the front but a rear shock re-valve by you is a great second option. PM sent...
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:11 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
What about that Mitani stuff? Are those plates? If kits include springs take care as many after-market kits make the 'heavy duty' error on too-stiff springs. Wouldn't hurt to have other choices to play with though, especially when using 3 or 4 springs.
The Mitani clutch is an assembly, plates and steels. 3 different fiber materials, and they have to be installed in a specific order. I'm not sure, but I believe the steels are dimpled for oil retention. I don't think the Mitani kit comes with springs. I did get the chance to ride an '07 Repsol with the Mitani clutch a few years ago, and WOW what a difference over stock. VERY progressive, not grabby at all. The Sureflex I installed in Miss Bitter's 315R comes very close to mimicking the Mitani, and it is just a fiber kit.

I did inherit the OE clutch (fibers and steels) out of that same Repsol recently. The original owner replaced it with the Mitani clutch when the bike only had about 10 hours on it. I'm thinking that the Sureflex fibers would go nice on those barely-used steels, since I'm not so sure that Jitsie sells their dimpled 4RT steels anymore.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:23 PM   #53
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Jitsie sell 4rt Steels still - but no info on them other than price. Cant tell from the photo if there dimpled or not. I'll ask them if you think you want some. Looks like there about $50.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:23 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Jitsie sell 4rt Steels still - but no info on them other than price. Cant tell from the photo if there dimpled or not. I'll ask them if you think you want some. Looks like there about $50.

Shweet!!!
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:52 AM   #55
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Message sent to Jitsie. Probably hear back tomorrow.

On a different note - (But still 4rt related)

I've seen several FB posts regarding US riders planning on the new 4rt's coming to the USA. Anyone hear about this or are they referring to gray market bikes. I haven't seen any announcements regarding a change of heart from Honda. (or there lawyers)
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:58 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Message sent to Jitsie. Probably hear back tomorrow.

On a different note - (But still 4rt related)

I've seen several FB posts regarding US riders planning on the new 4rt's coming to the USA. Anyone hear about this or are they referring to gray market bikes. I haven't seen any announcements regarding a change of heart from Honda. (or there lawyers)

I keep hearing rumors of Montesa coming back to the U.S. From fairly reliable sources too. We'll see.....
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:09 AM   #57
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I would hope they started all the cert paperwork if thats the case. I hear that alone can take a year. Given the crack efficiency of our state and fed government - I'd say that's probably realistic. (hopefully is NOT a website based cert process...)
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:23 AM   #58
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This rumor continues to float around. 4rt's to Honda dealers as in the UK. It appears that some US Honda dealers are considering wholesaling to trials only dealers as opposed to selling retail if they actually are imported. Still...only rumors and no time frame yet.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:08 AM   #59
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Probably won't happen but given the choice, I would love to see them sold again as Hondas (in Honda shops) even if not all dealers bring them in, just for the access, convenience and better brand recognition that would return.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:41 AM   #60
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Back to the clutch master cylinder topic, I'm probably going to replace my clutch M/C very soon (05 4RT) so if one was going to be replacing it anyway, would it be better to get the 315R master cylinder or just get the stock one for the 05 4RT? And mineral oil or DOT 4 fluid? Pro's or con's? Just curious...
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