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Old 10-31-2013, 10:43 AM   #61
laser17
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I always thought HRC/SHOWA setup the suspension on Bou's bike, but upon careful inspection I found this decal.

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Old 10-31-2013, 11:55 AM   #62
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Good one laser, don't be lustin' over my shock. NMTB, from the 05 4rt parts book, 22880-NN4-000, is the small oem master. From the 09 book, 22882-NN3-830, larger master and same as the 01-04 315. I made the switch an "thought" I could feel an improvement. Although I find no difference with the two side by side other than the tank volume, the pistons are the same size 9.5mm, the lever geometry is the same, so I have no reason to believe there is any actual improvement. On the other hand, I suspect the price is similar so why not the updated part? I do have a perfectly good used 05 oem master, 90 hours or so, you could buy at 1/2 price.
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Old 10-31-2013, 12:49 PM   #63
SportSawyer
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I believe the 22882-NN3-830 part is just the stamped steel clamp (called a "holder"), and is common to all 4RT clutch master cylinders. The 2009 parts book I have lists the master cylinder assembly as 22880-NN4-D01. A 2010 RTL260F lists it as 22880-NN4-D02. The 2005 and 2007 parts lists show 22880-NN4-000 for the assembly. Not sure if the -D01 & -D02 numbers cross-reference into an older 22880-NN3-xxx number (see below).

For the 315 master cylinder assembly, the 1997 uses 22880-NN3-000, 1998 to 2000 uses 22880-NN3-800, and 2001 to 2004 uses 22880-NN3-830.


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Old 10-31-2013, 03:17 PM   #64
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
The spring constant k is found by inverting Hooke's Law: K = F/(length free-Length deformed)

It's easy to measure shock springs cause there short and wide, fork springs can be tricky and really need a jig, (You can use a 1 1/2" PVC sleeve to support the spring (maybe 85-% of it anyway - depending on the weight you use) from sliding out from under the weight as long as the weight doesnt bottom against it) although I have done it free hand and only smashed my fingers half a dozen times with the 40 lb hand weight I was using. Probably wont get a NIST Calibration award, but usually good enough to differentiate the selection of available springs.
Lamotovita and Laser, and others...

K=fx is simple but requires a jig and there are lots of springs. If you have one tool, calipers, and a formula, you can get the k for many springs. Better yet, forget all the calculating and just plug numbers into my informative little spring calculator, an Excel spreadsheet I made up:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9e...it?usp=sharing

In that doc are numbers in the first part regarding k from a Reiger 72.5 N/mm shock spring. The numbers from the second part are from something else. The formula method gets you pretty darned close but needs some empirical tweaking. If you want to follow the formula as in the engineering books, use 8. I sometimes gets number too low with 8. I could calibrate the formula if someone has a carefully measured spring with k=fx, and can provide me with accurate numbers for wire diameter, outside diameter, and number of active coils.

Has anyone downloaded the spreadsheet and played with it?

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Old 10-31-2013, 03:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
Good one laser, don't be lustin' over my shock. NMTB, from the 05 4rt parts book, 22880-NN4-000, is the small oem master. From the 09 book, 22882-NN3-830, larger master and same as the 01-04 315. I made the switch an "thought" I could feel an improvement. Although I find no difference with the two side by side other than the tank volume, the pistons are the same size 9.5mm, the lever geometry is the same, so I have no reason to believe there is any actual improvement. On the other hand, I suspect the price is similar so why not the updated part? I do have a perfectly good used 05 oem master, 90 hours or so, you could buy at 1/2 price.
Folks go into ordering these chasing a phantom improvement. Save your money for other changes or just puck one like KrAzy's for a spare.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:21 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
I always thought HRC/SHOWA setup the suspension on Bou's bike, but upon careful inspection I found this decal.
Hey that Buffalo looks dead! Dry crusty nose....

That's cute, really. Perhaps odd to be a recreation and cattle ranch with a machine and welding shop and lots of experience in our eclectic sport?
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:30 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
Folks go into ordering these chasing a phantom improvement. Save your money for other changes or just puck one like KrAzy's for a spare.
Hi 'bene! Rode with you in Semi-Ex at Sipapu this year.

I'm not doing it just for an improvement...I need a new clutch master cylinder regardless! I'm just asking if I am going to order a new one anyway, would I be better off to get the 315R one or just stick with the stocker from the 05 4RT? (If you dropped your bike and broke yours tomorrow, would you replace it with a 315 or 4RT M/C?).

And, once I get a new one, should I use some form of mineral oil in it or just use the DOT 4 fluid I have been using all along. Any thoughts?

BTW...great thread so far gents! Very good information here!
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:45 PM   #68
lineaway
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HhMmm, Curtis don`t you own a 315. Pull it off and run it this weekend!
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
HhMmm, Curtis don`t you own a 315. Pull it off and run it this weekend!

Well, since his '99 315R is currently keeping company with the other 3 Montesas in my garage, shouldn't I be the one removing it?








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Old 10-31-2013, 06:57 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
HhMmm, Curtis don`t you own a 315. Pull it off and run it this weekend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
Well, since his '99 315R is currently keeping company with the other 3 Montesas in my garage, shouldn't I be the one removing it?



Don't you guys have some vintage crap to revive or something!

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Old 11-01-2013, 04:51 AM   #71
Gordy
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Originally Posted by NMTrailboss View Post



Don't you guys have some vintage crap to revive or something!

I thought that this was the vintage thread.

JK. Some good, solid info in here!
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:40 AM   #72
brewtus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMTrailboss View Post

Don't you guys have some vintage crap to revive or something!


Nope. Did that last week.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
I thought that this was the vintage thread.
JK. Some good, solid info in here!
Funny.

Well Ta, Gents. I'm off to SanYo. Without a 315R master cylinder.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:56 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by NMTrailboss View Post
Hi 'bene! Rode with you in Semi-Ex at Sipapu this year.

I'm not doing it just for an improvement...I need a new clutch master cylinder regardless! I'm just asking if I am going to order a new one anyway, would I be better off to get the 315R one or just stick with the stocker from the 05 4RT? (If you dropped your bike and broke yours tomorrow, would you replace it with a 315 or 4RT M/C?).

And, once I get a new one, should I use some form of mineral oil in it or just use the DOT 4 fluid I have been using all along. Any thoughts?

BTW...great thread so far gents! Very good information here!
I was SO focused on competing while sucking major air up there that I don't recall most of my fellow competitors other than the ones I see frequently. Sure had fun up there though, and plan to do it again. They'll be gunning for me in SX next year :-(

As for which one, I can't answer than because I still don't know if anything is better. If the reservoir is bigger on the 315R master cylinder that's just different and doesn't matter. All should be run full of fluid with no air bubble and you'll never lack for fluid.

KrAzy has a nice original he'll sell you.

As for what fluid, that too I think is more a big deal than should be. The green-tops on the AJPs indicate mineral oil should be used, but I don't think it has anything to do with master cylinder seal materials, but what MIGHT be used in the slave down below. Certain seal materials, perhaps Buna-N?, are more sensitive to DOT 3 and 4. But you can run mineral oil or fork oils or DOT 5 (a silicone-based fluid) I think in any of them. A safe bet is a 2-1/2 to 5-weight fork oil.

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Old 11-01-2013, 08:23 AM   #74
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Bike Ride Attitude (Pitch) & Bar (grip) Position & Pegs

Of the many variables that go into a bike’s steering characteristics, such as engine position in the frame relative to the axles (more forward and lower is more modern), you will have some control of only a few. The 4RT tends toward oversteer right out of the box. That is, when doing leaned turns the front end will want to steer itself into a tighter radius and in a hard-lock leaned turn may tuck the front end under. Combine that with the fast ‘fart power’ of the 4 stoke and a twitchy wrist, and you’ll be a points-taking spazoid, especially when you fatigue.

A handling fix you have control over is bike pitch angle. Slightly butt low (more squat) and make sure the front end does not ride low.

Shock spring preload should lower than you might think for your weight. KrAzy’s shock spring preloaded to 5.06” before, and I lowered preload to 5.08”. He commented on how the rear end looked to be squatting too much watching me (180 pounds), but I said it was needed that given other considerations. The results overall were more up-to-date handling especially with the faster suspension.

Riders tend to want to jack the preload up and opt for stiffer springs, but don’t give equal weight to handling side effects. Jacking preload up will quicken a slow shock, but it comes at a cost when you are already steering on the fast side. A butt-hgih bike will also raise the pegs and center of mass (reduces lateral stability and balance ease)

Fork stanchion position in the triple clamps (triple trees or whatever you blokes in the UK call them) should be stanchion tubes level with the top of the fork tubes to no more than 6mm sticking up, and dial in half or more max preload on the big blue hex socket.

When we put on the forged aluminum RQ pegs from RYP specific to the RT, the pegs felt very noticeably better. The RQ pegs are a little lower, farther back, and longer with a great tooth profile, and much lighter.



Critical on this bike is bar rotation and grip position. The affects steering moments (torques) and body position (front wheel weighting and other).I’ve long run my bars well forward on all my bikes, even dualsports, but a few recent learning experiences have refine my thinking to going a little more forward than before. KrAzy sent me a photo. It's not from the side, but it does show how forward the bars are on his 4RT. While moving them forward does add some oversteer, it’s critical. Slowing the steering with suspension tweaks allows you to then get the benefits of more forward bars.

It’s a too-long explanation regarding what’s going on with the bars. Best is just to try the whole combination described here and report back on whether it is working for you after you reprogram to new settings.

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Old 11-01-2013, 07:18 PM   #75
NMTrailboss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
I was SO focused on competing while sucking major air up there that I don't recall most of my fellow competitors other than the ones I see frequently. Sure had fun up there though, and plan to do it again. They'll be gunning for me in SX next year :-(

As for which one, I can't answer than because I still don't know if anything is better. If the reservoir is bigger on the 315R master cylinder that's just different and doesn't matter. All should be run full of fluid with no air bubble and you'll never lack for fluid.

KrAzy has a nice original he'll sell you.

As for what fluid, that too I think is more a big deal than should be. The green-tops on the AJPs indicate mineral oil should be used, but I don't think it has anything to do with master cylinder seal materials, but what MIGHT be used in the slave down below. Certain seal materials, perhaps Buna-N?, are more sensitive to DOT 3 and 4. But you can run mineral oil or fork oils or DOT 5 (a silicone-based fluid) I think in any of them. A safe bet is a 2-1/2 to 5-weight fork oil.
Thanks for the reply and opinions! Hoping you are able to make it back to Sipapu next year!! It is such an amazing place for an event.
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