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Old 11-02-2013, 08:55 AM   #76
laser17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Jitsie sell 4rt Steels still - but no info on them other than price. Cant tell from the photo if there dimpled or not. I'll ask them if you think you want some. Looks like there about $50.
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JITSIE T1 // TACTICAL TRIALS DIVISION
Hi Trebor... unfortunately we do not have these plates anymore. The surface was similar to a golf ball so the oil could move around easily which helped make the clutch less sticky.
We will inquire if we can get more of this type.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:49 AM   #77
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Lewisport had the dimpled Jitsie 4RT steel plate sets in the past. They may still have some.

Apico has the dimpled steel plates too. BVM Moto in the UK has them:

http://www.bvm-parts.co.uk/index.php...roduct_id=1388

FWIW, some have claimed that there are Honda OEM steel plates (IIRC CR125) which are dimpled and fit the 4RT. Buying a full set would probably cost more than the aftermarket sets though.

I have the Mitani clutch pack with normal & steel and like it. They've been hard to find in the US. They are available in hard, normal, or soft friction plate combinations with either steel or aluminum metal plates. Sandifords in the UK had some, not sure which type(s).

Another option I haven't tried is using all cork 22201-KY2-000 plates rather than 2 corks with 4 papers in the middle. The 2010 Honda RTL260F parts book shows this as an alternate clutch. I've heard the Surflex friction plates are all cork.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:55 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Bad news for now - here's the reply

JITSIE T1 // TACTICAL TRIALS DIVISION
Hi Trebor... unfortunately we do not have these plates anymore. The surface was similar to a golf ball so the oil could move around easily which helped make the clutch less sticky.
We will inquire if we can get more of this type.
Can't say as I'm surprised...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
Lewisport had the dimpled Jitsie 4RT steel plate sets in the past. They may still have some.

Apico has the dimpled steel plates too. BVM Moto in the UK has them:

http://www.bvm-parts.co.uk/index.php...roduct_id=1388
I suspect they are the same as the old Jitsie plates. Probably from the same supplier as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
FWIW, some have claimed that there are Honda OEM steel plates (IIRC CR125) which are dimpled and fit the 4RT. Buying a full set would probably cost more than the aftermarket sets though.
Part number??



Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
I've heard the Surflex friction plates are all cork.
They are. And work well.
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:21 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
.... Part number??
CR125 1983-2007: PN 22321-KA3-710
CR125 1982: PN 22321-KA3-700
CR125 1977-1981: PN 22321-360-000

I'd stress the "some have claimed." I haven't checked the plates myself for dimples or fit. In those claims, model year range wasn't given. I'd guess the most recent, which covered a lot of years.
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:54 AM   #80
brewtus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
CR125 1983-2007: PN 22321-KA3-710
CR125 1982: PN 22321-KA3-700
CR125 1977-1981: PN 22321-360-000

I'd stress the "some have claimed." I haven't checked the plates myself for dimples or fit. In those claims, model year range wasn't given. I'd guess the most recent, which covered a lot of years.

Noted. I can't say that I ever remember a set of OE Honda steels that were dimpled, but it's been a while since I've been gone from that profession. Thanks!
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:57 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
CR125 1983-2007: PN 22321-KA3-710
CR125 1982: PN 22321-KA3-700
CR125 1977-1981: PN 22321-360-000

I'd stress the "some have claimed." I haven't checked the plates myself for dimples or fit. In those claims, model year range wasn't given. I'd guess the most recent, which covered a lot of years.
Wow. I'm increasingly surprised at how many places this basic clutch design is used. One could assume more recent would be better, and that the new part number -KA3-710 should subsume the older ones if you tried to order the others?

Too bad all those Mitani options are hard to come by in North America, and they sound interesting.

If it were my dollar, I'd go Sureflex and avoid Honda clutch plates. Honda has a longstanding reputation for too-quick clutches. Sureflex has a lot off trials history.

As for dimpled or not, who knows what that really does? We assume trapped oil, but who has been small enough to ride around in a dimple and watch what happens?

On the flats between all those dimples, the plates could have a wide variety of surface conditions and that may be more important than dimples. I've found clutches will be a little less grabby after sanding all the metal and fiber plates by hand with 80-grit emery paper in random directions. It's been my way in the past to put a little bit of new feeling back into a clutch and to get plates to stop sticking together after storage time.

My 300 Raga clutch (from my Econo 280) has gotten a bit faster with use. I'm thinking of disassembling it to scratch everything up, as soon as I can find the 8mm 12-point socket to fit the goofy little screws GasGas decided to use on their clutches.

Oh and I noticed when looking at both GasGas clutches assembled that one of the fiber plates seemed to have a slightly different color. I wonder if they do a multi-material thing as well?

motobene screwed with this post 11-05-2013 at 06:07 AM
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:09 AM   #82
Thats_a_Five
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Great stuff guys! I can't wait to get back stateside so I can apply some of these improvements to my '05 4RT.

Have you done anything to reduce the throttle braking? I know, "learn better throttle control" and I am trying.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:12 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thats_a_Five View Post
Great stuff guys! I can't wait to get back stateside so I can apply some of these improvements to my '05 4RT.

Have you done anything to reduce the throttle braking? I know, "learn better throttle control" and I am trying.
One way is to raise the idle. In the old days when the clutch was used little, the idle on bike was sometime very low so you could brake by shutting off the throttle. Like high ground clearance, that technique is now out of favor because it causes other problems, like stalling.

I run the idle fairly high on my GasGas such that when cold the engine won't die easily with clutch in creeping around slowly. When the engine warms the idle will be somewhat high, but that reduces stalling tendency.

On a 4RT the idle is naturally quite high to run the FI without a battery. That reduces the throttle-closed engine braking effect.

The latest model 4RT comes with claims of managing crank case pressure pulses to reduce engine braking, if I understand that right. Still a mystery as to HOW they'd do that. And I don't get it. If you pressuring the crank case on the down stroke, you get the energy back on the upstroke. Aha! Maybe they seal the crank case better so they don't lose energy in both directions through leakage?

motobene screwed with this post 11-19-2013 at 05:50 AM
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:55 AM   #84
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It's been quiet on this thread. I'm wondering if any of you other than our test case:

- Did the 4-clutch-springs mod

- Sped up the forks with Redline 2.5 extra light

Some of you are waiting for deep winter to send me the shock for revalve.

I'm asking because I want to know if the time I spend here is effective (resulting in change).

Thanks.
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Old 11-19-2013, 06:44 AM   #85
laser17
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Does anyone have any info on the new crankcase decomp on the latest 4rts? Im wondering what they did and haven't seen any specifics yet.
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Old 11-19-2013, 06:53 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
It's been quiet on this thread. I'm wondering if any of you other than our test case:

- Did the 4-clutch-springs mod

- Sped up the forks with Redline 2.5 extra light

Some of you are waiting for deep winter to send me the shock for revalve.

I'm asking because I want to know if the time I spend here is effective (resulting in change).

Thanks.
I probably won't do either of those things on my 4RT, but I appreciate reading about it. I was already planning on experimenting with clutch springs on a different bike so your posts were encouraging in that case.
The thing with 4RT mods is that you're working with a six+ year old bike. Those of us that have been riding them have already either modified the bike or adapted our riding to suit the bike to some extent. It's also a fair assumption that most of us that are competing on six+ year old bikes are not top level or even very serious competitors. I'm always interested in hearing about others experience and solutions though.
You never did address my question about flywheel weight in post #36. I was hoping your background would enable you to provide some insight on that issue.
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lamotovita screwed with this post 11-19-2013 at 04:49 PM
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:42 AM   #87
Thats_a_Five
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4RT mods

Motobene,

I have not made any mods yet.... I fully intend to.

I really appreciate the detailed descriptions of what you did and how it worked. I just got my 4RT this summer and love the bike. Especially the rear suspension. WOW. I will post my reaction once I make some mods.

Thanks again for all you knowledge and sharing of this info.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:54 AM   #88
jonnyc21
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For what it's worth I have committed to having my rear shock reworked by motobene (unexpected expense so will be early to mid December). And am looking forward to seeing how much it changes the bike.

I am considering doing the springs when the shock is out for service but not 100% on that as the ELF I have left seems to make it work fine for me. However I will be running some different oil for testing for sure as I don't have as much ELF as I would need for the life of the bike...

Might be a few befor I have a ride report on the changes but I will do my best to give a report worthy of the level of bene's efforts once I have the bike updated and know a bit more about the other oil in comparison to the ELF.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:47 AM   #89
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Thanks for the report back, guys. I've been spending significant hours on this forum because I like it, but it may not be the wisest use of my time, especially if my work is having little apparent effect and isn't profitable beyond recreation time for the brain.

At a recent board meeting and continuing education, I came across Daniel Pink's Flip Manifesto. It's one of those management books in pre-book form with a list of neat concepts that run contrary to many assumptions. One neat bit is the concept of to-don't and to-stop lists. Everybody thinks in terms of the to-do lists, but enhancing personal success requires avoiding some things and stopping doing some things. These can be as simple as, "Don't go to bed after 11 pm."

I have been wondering lately about the wisdom of sinking some of my precious morning hours into this forum, which is why I asked.

BTW, look at this for a bit of Daniel Pink's work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

motobene screwed with this post 11-21-2013 at 07:23 AM
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:35 AM   #90
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Thanks for sharing that Motobene... The video was intresting, now I am going to have to take some time and look more at Dan Pink's information.
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