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Old 12-06-2013, 03:46 PM   #721
atomicalex
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A stagnant boundary layer? With non-critical water? I'm crying here! ;)

See if you can find Kenny Ludema's book, It will get you through the basics. After that, you have to deal with Cameron and Bowden and Tabor, it is really beneficial to have some Chem background For those, though.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:37 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by 100mpg View Post

An MT with no air at 90? There is NO way that is possible unless you had a side car. At 10mpg, an MT would be all over the road. At speed, then loosing air, you could slow it down but if you continue to ride, you are going down.
100%...............................WRONG!
I got a front flat on the NY Thruway coming down from Vermont on my ZRX 1100 while following a 500S Benz who was my "rabbit". We were going a constant 110-125mph for miles on end and the road is fairly straightish. When doing a quick lane change, quick just to keep things more interesting, I noticed the front end felt like it was filled with lead and figured............OH SHIT, flat front. I had no choice but to keep going because there was no chance of fixing in in the middle of nowhere. I rode the bike about another 30 miles keeping it around 100mph, because at high speed the bike was just fine. Now, slowing down and wrestling the thing around the "off-ramp"............
At high speed the tire stays "round". Just can't really lean.
Slow down and

I've had to ride flats on street bikes a number of times, and it's always the same, go fast & try to lean as little as possible. Never once fell off because of riding a flat.
On my dirt bike I get LOTS of flats, and every time I get to the road I just go about 60mph, and the bike is totally "rideable". Unless it's a trails tire!

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Old 12-06-2013, 06:48 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER View Post
100%...............................WRONG!


I rode the bike about another 30 miles keeping it around 100mph, because at high speed the bike was just fine. Now, slowing down and wrestling the thing around the "off-ramp"............
At high speed the tire stays "round". Just can't really lean.
Slow down and

no shit? 30 miles...at 100mph...with a flat. That is totally unbelievable.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:26 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by 100mpg View Post

no shit? 30 miles...at 100mph...with a flat. That is totally unbelievable.
Why? I've gone more miles than I will admit to on a rear flat at speeds of up to about 80 MPH. At speed all was well. Lower speeds were a bit squirrelly.

I expect most inmates have ridden on flats at low speed, and many at freeway speeds. At least for enough distance to get a feel for it. I doubt either is good for the tire. I'd expect 30 miles at 100MPH on an under-inflated tire could lead to premature tire failure.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:35 PM   #725
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
I wonder why that is, lol



That sounds like fun! I'll ping you next time I'm headed up that way. Prolly not until the Spring.

Well,,,, most track day and road racing orgs will not allow knobbies either. Considering that post that linked the TKC running "near comparable" lap times as a Pilot Road,,,,,, the CT's in good company as long as you're not racing I reckon!

In any event,,, looking forward to some riding if you visit up this way.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:16 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by air-cooled View Post
last, i believe you guys as said earlier, that a ct gives a feeling when accelerating out of a corner that there is more grip. i don't believe grip is actually better but i will admit direct, we can not compare.
feeling is fine, especially if you think it's good, but to measure actual figures is better in mine opinion.
Actual traction while leaned over is a pretty hard thing to measure objectively. If this were drag racing, it would be pretty easy,,,,,, or at least alot more easy to measure. Just look at 60fts of each tire assuming like rider and and bike.

I know some will say,,,,, simple, just compare track times but as I said it's just not that cut and dried as many factors affect the lap times of a given rider and bike. Going fast on the track requires confidence and you get that from "feel" which many lump into "handling" and can greatly effect lap times depending on rider confidence. That's very suggestive because an "odd" or "vague feeling" tire to one rider might not effect them much, especially considering the rather low limits of say,,,, a DL650. I've ridden enough miles and run enough laps on less than perfect tires to where I can pretty quickly find their limits and stay with-in them comfortably. With some rider's, their pace is totally wrecked when they have no confidence in their tires. I've seen racers/track riders and even street rider that were fast as hell on the "in tire",,,,, when they were not able to procure their beloved "in tire" and had to use another tire they percieved as good, less than great or junk {to them},,,, their lap times or pace on the street was just ruined. In actuality, the tire they thought of as crap, shoulda been just fine and shoulda turned times equal to or at worst, just slightly slower. All due to rider confidence.

In addition, that extra reciprocating mass of the CT will really hurt accleration and deceleration which will definatly hurt lap times as compared to a MT. If the limits of the bike were fairly low {again, the DL650 has some fairly low cornering limits before hard parts start hitting} then rider confidence that is tied to "handling" could also be affected because of the CT extra mass effecting damping at the extreme limits.

So, while relative cornering traction might be hard to directly and objectively compare,,, you can still effectively compare it but it will be anecdotal evidence which I agree can be very subjective. In this case, nearly everyone that tries a CT and has spent enough time to get used to it has agreed they thought it gave more traction in most conditions {including cornering on tarmac} that you get a large enough cross section of data to determine that while it's anecdotal and subjective,,,, the data is most like right. My experience with the CT on my DL is that yes, it delivered more traction, even in cornering on tarmac than the MT I generally run. That experience included nearly busting my rump a couple of times due to spinning the tire under hard acceleration while crank over after switching back to a Shinko705. I had gotten used to the traction of the CT and exceeded the limits when I uses that same amount of throttle with the 705. In short, I had to get used to having less traction after replacing the CT with the Shinko705. You sure don't have to believe it but man,,,,, there are just too many people that have tried a CT to just disregard their input and chaulk that up to them lying or placebo effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by air-cooled View Post
i am also pretty sure a ct will hydroplane a lot earlier as a mt, but no figures about that as well for the moment, only thing to be found is that ct will hydroplane at a certain speed. no such thing found for mt yet.
i am sure the mt will hydroplane but maybe not worth mentioning because speeds are too high?
As I said before, I've hydroplaned a MT quite a few times. At times it was on the track at high speeds as you surmised but there have been times when it was on the street under just plain nasty conditions and the speeds were not so high. Matter of fact, I can remember one down pour where the rear of my GSXR repeatedly hydroplaned,,,, to the point where it actually became fun. Speeds were slow, well under 50mph.The tire was admitedly an upper end sport tire with very little regard for water evacuation.

I have rode in some very, very hard rain on my DL with the CT on back also. I did not notice any difference at all between it and the MT but notice I said I didn't "notice" anything. I'm sure there is a difference, probaly small, but I would have to ride in the same conditions, on the same bike back to nearly back to notice. It's not like I hydroplane on a fairly consistant basis so it's sorta hard to compare.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:37 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by 100mpg View Post
An MT with no air at 90? There is NO way that is possible unless you had a side car. At 10mpg, an MT would be all over the road. At speed, then loosing air, you could slow it down but if you continue to ride, you are going down.

Try to never speak in absolutes because that's one way to absolutely be proven wrong! And yes, I speak from experience on that truism.

While I have never ridden at 90mph continuously with a flat like that guy did on his run flat, I have had alot em and many times, just continued riding on them as long as it stayed beaded up. Just a couple of months ago I hit a large limb in the road on my DL650. It was very large, at least 8 inches, probably more like 10 inches in diameter. I hit while leaned over pretty well at a pretty good clip {around 50-60}. Because I was leaned over fairly well, the impact severaly bent my rim and I lost air pressure immediatly. The bike actually came off the ground and I ended up off the road of the opposite lane {good thing no oncomming ehh?} due to coming off the ground and then the head shake from the bent rim and flat front tire. The guy I was playing tag with {was in a car} actualy saw the whole thing and couldn't believe I didn't wreak. I hit the dirt at probably 30-40mph as I crossed the lane quickly and the only deceleration I was doing was due to me off throttle {did not want to hit no front brake at all}. I then come back out on the road and continued on for probably a good 2 miles to get to work. That was a front!

I've also had a rear 190 go completely flat on a GSXR and I rode on it for at least 10-15 miles at hwy speeds {a good 70mph or so} to get to a bike shop and get a new tire {I woulda plugged it but it had a utility knife in it,,, sorta hard to plug}. I found that higher speeds actually was easier as the wheel speed kept the tire,,,, for a lack of a better word, flung out.

Have also had a couple of tire chunk tread and go flat on the track pretty much instantly but I immediatly slowed and pitted but I actually rode it as fast as I could considering.

I have rode a couple of 705 rear flat for several miles also. No 90mph speeds but as I said, you really need to get a bit of speed or the tire will wallow even worse. Sorta like sand, going quicker is what you should do but it sound counter intuitive at first.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:06 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Try to never speak in absolutes because that's one way to absolutely be proven wrong! And yes, I speak from experience on that truism.

While I have never ridden at 90mph continuously with a flat like that guy did on his run flat, I have had alot em and many times, just continued riding on them as long as it stayed beaded up. Just a couple of months ago I hit a large limb in the road on my DL650. It was very large, at least 8 inches, probably more like 10 inches in diameter. I hit while leaned over pretty well at a pretty good clip {around 50-60}. Because I was leaned over fairly well, the impact severaly bent my rim and I lost air pressure immediatly. The bike actually came off the ground and I ended up off the road of the opposite lane {good thing no oncomming ehh?} due to coming off the ground and then the head shake from the bent rim and flat front tire. The guy I was playing tag with {was in a car} actualy saw the whole thing and couldn't believe I didn't wreak. I hit the dirt at probably 30-40mph as I crossed the lane quickly and the only deceleration I was doing was due to me off throttle {did not want to hit no front brake at all}. I then come back out on the road and continued on for probably a good 2 miles to get to work. That was a front!

I've also had a rear 190 go completely flat on a GSXR and I rode on it for at least 10-15 miles at hwy speeds {a good 70mph or so} to get to a bike shop and get a new tire {I woulda plugged it but it had a utility knife in it,,, sorta hard to plug}. I found that higher speeds actually was easier as the wheel speed kept the tire,,,, for a lack of a better word, flung out.

Have also had a couple of tire chunk tread and go flat on the track pretty much instantly but I immediatly slowed and pitted but I actually rode it as fast as I could considering.

I have rode a couple of 705 rear flat for several miles also. No 90mph speeds but as I said, you really need to get a bit of speed or the tire will wallow even worse. Sorta like sand, going quicker is what you should do but it sound counter intuitive at first.
Obviously, I've not been riding enough.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:44 AM   #729
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Well,,,, most track day and road racing orgs will not allow knobbies either. Considering that post that linked the TKC running "near comparable" lap times as a Pilot Road,,,,,, the CT's in good company as long as you're not racing I reckon!
Pilot Road 1. Ancient history nowadays.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:25 AM   #730
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pilot road are ancient say 8 years ago but what are you implying. pilot road is nearly as fast as the road attack1, the road attack2 is new, doing laptimes just a bit better, besides a lot of other stuff which it is doing better, but we are not talking about that, so RA2 has improved about 3sec a lap which is quiet a lot, but that means the old dino pilot road is only 3 a 4 sec slower, which is a lot for racing for place nr1 or 2, i agree, but on a lap of 80 sec. for your own fun it is not that much considering that we, with our own bikes, do not do lap after lap on the limit of the tire.

@jud, is it possible that your hydroplanning with the rear tire could be just slipping of the rear tire. mine 1150 gs which i use sometimes one wet track days is capable of spinning the rear wheel when passing white lines like start/finish in the wet. and back to grip on the tarmac, even if the line i pass is not more than 30cm long.
we all know that during rain, roads can be slippery, which is a total other thing than hydroplaning and even the main cause of being carefull during rain. other reason for spinning your rear wheel is that it is not reaching it working temperature and so grip is minimal and spinning at low speeds likely. you even say that you were able to spin the rear wheel at will, sounds like a rolling burn out, which can be performed with a bike or a car. get a car with enough power and sporty tires in wet circumstances and definitely spinning at low speed is no problem at all without hydroplanning.

don't know what rear tire you use on your gsx, i guess not your most talked about 705. i hope not.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:48 AM   #731
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I am truly amazed (disgusted really) at the naysayers who insist that paper theory trumps real world proof/experience. The real comedy is that you think all the darksiders are just lying here, like it's a big conspiracy...like you're so important that they need to make up this big lie just to get one over on YOU

Maybe some of you are just too much of a pussy to try things for yourself, to push the boundaries, to try things that fuktards on the interwebz say you aren't supposed to do...you need that black and white rule book to tell you it's ok before you can go out and do it

Thank god people like Burt Munro didn't have to check on the interwebz to see if it was ok to do what he had in mind...he probably would have told you to go fuck yourself as he went ahead and pushed the boundaries his way anyways

Wow, what a truly descriptive name you have there... maybe add fucktard to it and it will even give more detail.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:09 AM   #732
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Why not just go for the ultimate in tread longevity:



Rosco McGlashan inspects one of the specially designed wheels he hopes will allow his team to break the land speed record by going through the 1000 mph mark.



Load rating should easily meet most of your fully loaded bike needs. It works great on a 12 ton jet land speed vehicle.

Rumor has it they will be testing it at The Tail of the Dragon on June 31, 2014. Be there or be square (we should include round to include those MT riders out there, don't want you to be left out).
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:17 AM   #733
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i thought 1000mph was considered as reckless driving.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:45 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by air-cooled View Post
pilot road are ancient say 8 years ago but what are you implying. pilot road is nearly as fast as the road attack1, the road attack2 is new, doing laptimes just a bit better, besides a lot of other stuff which it is doing better, but we are not talking about that, so RA2 has improved about 3sec a lap which is quiet a lot, but that means the old dino pilot road is only 3 a 4 sec slower, which is a lot for racing for place nr1 or 2, i agree, but on a lap of 80 sec. for your own fun it is not that much considering that we, with our own bikes, do not do lap after lap on the limit of the tire.
Well if you're looking to "prove" knobblies can be as fast as road tyres on track, then it makes sense to pick a slow road tyre.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:06 AM   #735
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Pecha, are You looking for a fight, or do you just have reading trouble? No one said knobbies are good on the track.
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