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Old 11-14-2013, 04:31 PM   #31
bikeridermark
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
First of all, yes, the transmissions in the older Honda CB750 and CB400, and the Suzuki GS450 were indeed 2 speed transmissions with torque converters. There was no actual shifting controlled by hydraulic pressure as there is in a conventional automatic car transmission (which also use torque converters) It would have probably have been cost prohibitive and technically difficult to put such a transmission in a motorcycle.



But the cheap CVTs used on scooters border on being unacceptable, both for reliability and performance reasons. I had several 1000+ mile round trips planned for this winter on small scooters. I will now use a small displacement motorcycle instead. The scooters are still ok for running around town, though I need to get rid of one of the CVT scooters.
Glad you admit you don't have a clue you don't know what you are talking about as far as automatic mc's are concerned.

As far as your statement about cheap scooter CVTs, my Hondas have perfectly reliable cvts with great performance, because they are tuned properly, run great and have been totally reliable.

What's next,Jerry?
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:45 PM   #32
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I have practically the first CVT in the Great Japanese Scooter Rebirth of the 80s, the 1984 CH125 Elite. The CVT works like new without any maintenance. Seems like they had it worked out from the start. It is a lot of fun to zip around and not have to think about the clutch and gears. I expect it saves a lot of engines, too. When I was a teenager, winding out the engine going through the gears was a favorite way to tear up a Japanese motorcycle. Under most circumstances it seems like the way to go. I rarely ride the Honda, but I like the CVT. Shifting is a profoundly different experience.The shifting can be tedious when I have to start and stop a lot. I drive the old Heinkel because it handles better and has more room, and it looks like a rocket. The Honda looks like a vacuum cleaner. http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
. But it still broke, and I still have no idea why.
Yet you have decided that CVTs on scooters are crap?
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:55 PM   #34
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First time I ever saw a Heinkel. Looks cool!
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:07 PM   #35
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First time I ever saw a Heinkel. Looks cool!
It seems such a shallow impulse, but I drive this antique (and my other one) on almost every decent day, and enjoy being seen on it. It feels and sounds good too.http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...otostream/1989
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:38 PM   #36
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It seems such a shallow impulse, but I drive this antique (and my other one) on almost every decent day, and enjoy being seen on it. It feels and sounds good too.http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...otostream/1989

The Heinkel is one of the finest scooters ever....Teutonically beautiful and overbuilt. Good for you for riding it and keeping it on the road.


I had that exact same Elite, same color even. Regret seling it to this very day.
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:44 PM   #37
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The Heinkel is one of the finest scooters ever....Teutonically beautiful and overbuilt. Good for you for riding it and keeping it on the road.



Does it have a CVT?
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:51 AM   #38
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A CVT might be fine for running around town, or even on short trips, as long as there are no serious hills. I would ride my 125 at full throttle for over 300 miles a day, and did that for 24,000 miles. Replaced 2 belts at 10,000 miles, everything went fine, just regular maintenance. I was convinced that it was a reliable system, though it does look flimsy. Then an oem Yamaha belt disintegrated at 4000 miles for no apparent reason. I took everything apart, and there was no sign of wear or damage to anything but the belt (the rollers were also nearly new, oem Yamaha) So what was it? A bad belt? It looked fine when I put it on. According to the paperwork it was the right part number. The belt itself was so badly damaged the part number was gone. There were no symptoms of any kind before failure. The engine rpms went up and the bike slowed down, and rolled to a stop. I replaced the belt, and it runs fine now. But now I know it can fail at any time without warning. There is no way to inspect it without removing a lot of parts, but I doubt that would do any good anyway. My guess is that it probably looked just fine right up until it shredded.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
A CVT might be fine for running around town, or even on short trips, as long as there are no serious hills. I would ride my 125 at full throttle for over 300 miles a day, and did that for 24,000 miles. Replaced 2 belts at 10,000 miles, everything went fine, just regular maintenance. I was convinced that it was a reliable system, though it does look flimsy. Then an oem Yamaha belt disintegrated at 4000 miles for no apparent reason. I took everything apart, and there was no sign of wear or damage to anything but the belt (the rollers were also nearly new, oem Yamaha) So what was it? A bad belt? It looked fine when I put it on. According to the paperwork it was the right part number. The belt itself was so badly damaged the part number was gone. There were no symptoms of any kind before failure. The engine rpms went up and the bike slowed down, and rolled to a stop. I replaced the belt, and it runs fine now. But now I know it can fail at any time without warning. There is no way to inspect it without removing a lot of parts, but I doubt that would do any good anyway. My guess is that it probably looked just fine right up until it shredded.
ANY part can be defective. You probably got a defective belt. Any mechanical device can and will occasional fail, be it a scooter, car, airplane, or whatever.

I have been riding over 30 years and around 400,000 miles. I have discovered that sometimes shit happens, whether it's a break down, accident or unexpected bad weather. That doesn't make me whine about everything or keep me from enjoying riding. I'm sure at some point something bad will happen to me while riding again. I'll take reasonable measures to prepare like carrying a tire repair kit and wearing protective riding gear but I won't spend hours on the internet proclaiming the sky is falling and bitching about everything.

Grow up Jerry, shit happens and that's life. Enjoy it or not, it's your choice.

BTW, I have taken long trips and gone up steep hill with my CVT scooters. So have many others. Your statement about scooters only being good for short trips around town is pure BS.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
ANY part can be defective. You probably got a defective belt. Any mechanical device can and will occasional fail, be it a scooter, car, airplane, or whatever.

I have been riding over 30 years and around 400,000 miles. I have discovered that sometimes shit happens, whether it's a break down, accident or unexpected bad weather. That doesn't make me whine about everything or keep me from enjoying riding. I'm sure at some point something bad will happen to me while riding again. I'll take reasonable measures to prepare like carrying a tire repair kit and wearing protective riding gear but I won't spend hours on the internet proclaiming the sky is falling and bitching about everything.

Grow up Jerry, shit happens and that's life. Enjoy it or not, it's your choice.

BTW, I have taken long trips and gone up steep hill with my CVT scooters. So have many others. Your statement about scooters only being good for short trips around town is pure BS.
Amen!
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
A CVT might be fine for running around town, or even on short trips, as long as there are no serious hills. I would ride my 125 at full throttle for over 300 miles a day, and did that for 24,000 miles. Replaced 2 belts at 10,000 miles, everything went fine, just regular maintenance. I was convinced that it was a reliable system, though it does look flimsy. Then an oem Yamaha belt disintegrated at 4000 miles for no apparent reason. I took everything apart, and there was no sign of wear or damage to anything but the belt (the rollers were also nearly new, oem Yamaha) So what was it? A bad belt? It looked fine when I put it on. According to the paperwork it was the right part number. The belt itself was so badly damaged the part number was gone. There were no symptoms of any kind before failure. The engine rpms went up and the bike slowed down, and rolled to a stop. I replaced the belt, and it runs fine now. But now I know it can fail at any time without warning. There is no way to inspect it without removing a lot of parts, but I doubt that would do any good anyway. My guess is that it probably looked just fine right up until it shredded.
Lumping all CVT's in here is false. There might be a belt problem, or a bike problem, but its not a failure of the fundamental design. Thats like saying car automatic transmissions are junk because you dad's 1950 mercury once burnt the fluid running through the mountains.

Yes, each implementation might have issues, but so does EVERYTHING else. Busa's eat gears, GM cars eat sun shells, the list goes on (and on, and on...). Heck, its practically impossible to find one vehicle where every single componenet is dead reliable. That also doesn't mean the idea, or others implementations, have the same limitations.

Again, I'm a snowmobile/ATV CVT guy, but I have seen 150hp sleds dig through 6' of powder at full throttle for an hour without a belt failure, and thats a HECK of a lot tougher on the belt than some hill on a road. Those same sleds will run for 10 hours a day riding trails with nary an issue, 200+ miles, on the same belt from last week, from last month, from last year. Thats a lot of load too as a sled eats 50% of the power needed to move forward just turning that big track.

Its not a design problem, its a implementation problem, or a parts problem.

Heck, you might as well say air filled tires are crap because you had one go flat once.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:39 AM   #42
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Lumping all CVT's in here is false. There might be a belt problem, or a bike problem, but its not a failure of the fundamental design. Thats like saying car automatic transmissions are junk because you dad's 1950 mercury once burnt the fluid running through the mountains.

Yes, each implementation might have issues, but so does EVERYTHING else. Busa's eat gears, GM cars eat sun shells, the list goes on (and on, and on...). Heck, its practically impossible to find one vehicle where every single componenet is dead reliable. That also doesn't mean the idea, or others implementations, have the same limitations.

Again, I'm a snowmobile/ATV CVT guy, but I have seen 150hp sleds dig through 6' of powder at full throttle for an hour without a belt failure, and thats a HECK of a lot tougher on the belt than some hill on a road. Those same sleds will run for 10 hours a day riding trails with nary an issue, 200+ miles, on the same belt from last week, from last month, from last year. Thats a lot of load too as a sled eats 50% of the power needed to move forward just turning that big track.

Its not a design problem, its a implementation problem, or a parts problem.

Heck, you might as well say air filled tires are crap because you had one go flat once.
You head the nail right on the head here. Jerry is a large guy who owns a couple of small 125cc scooters and expects them to perform like a maxi scooter. 125cc scooters are designed for riding around town. They can be ridden on long trips but riding a small bike wide open for an extended time will often lead to premature failure. Jerry bases everything he thinks and says on only his own experiences. He seems to be incapable of listening to, or learning from anyone else.

There seems to be little logic or consistency behind his ideas. He is paranoid about mechanical failure but almost totally shrugs off the hazards of not wearing protective gear beyond a helmet. I'm not sure why I bother to respond to his posts since this will all go right over his head.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:19 PM   #43
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I replaced the belt, and it runs fine now. But now I know it can fail at any time without warning.
So can your heart (and mine, and my son's). Does that keep you from using it?

Even these things break down from time-to-time, and some have catastrophc failures, but that hasn't made them any less fun (or safe, or reliable) to ride.

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Old 11-15-2013, 09:55 PM   #44
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For those of you that seem overly defensive on the subject of CVTs please note two things.

I made it perfectly clear that my experience was based on one 25 year old bike.

I wrote that based on that experience it seemed to me like a cheap, second rate set up.

If you took any more than that from my post you are attempting mind reading.

I will be happy to try a more modern CVT when I get a chance, until then I am happy shifting.

It IS a cheap, second rate setup. I knew that long before I ever had one fail. It also has serious performance issues. Or rather, lack of performance issues. A manual transmission scooter of the same size will be faster off the line, and will have a much wider gear spread, from top to bottom. A CVT is usually optimized for top speed, giving it terrible acceleration. You can change this, and get better acceleration, but you will loose top speed. Unlike a manual transmission, or a real automatic transmission, you can't have it all. The reason these things are used in scooters and low end cars is because of one thing. They are CHEAP to build. Notice Honda uses a DCT in it's automatic motorcycles, and before that, a 2 speed with a torque converter. No one that I am aware of has used a CVT on a motorcycle. I prefer torque converters myself, being familiar with them, and knowing they work and are reliable. But pretty much any type of transmission will work better and last longer than a CVT. Even the old Buick Dynaflow (also known as "does not go") was better than a CVT.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:50 PM   #45
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A CVT is usually optimized for top speed, giving it terrible acceleration.You can change this, and get better acceleration, but you will loose top speed.
Riiiiight.

http://youtu.be/ehlTdCQ0e8o

http://youtu.be/MJ7ZlrjywRc

http://youtu.be/dYTr88NLP5Q

http://youtu.be/__Z2AWcPMtk A CVT bike with simulated shifting.


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