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Old 11-16-2013, 05:20 AM   #46
klaviator
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
It IS a cheap, second rate setup. I knew that long before I ever had one fail. It also has serious performance issues. Or rather, lack of performance issues. A manual transmission scooter of the same size will be faster off the line, and will have a much wider gear spread, from top to bottom. A CVT is usually optimized for top speed, giving it terrible acceleration. You can change this, and get better acceleration, but you will loose top speed. Unlike a manual transmission, or a real automatic transmission, you can't have it all. The reason these things are used in scooters and low end cars is because of one thing. They are CHEAP to build. Notice Honda uses a DCT in it's automatic motorcycles, and before that, a 2 speed with a torque converter. No one that I am aware of has used a CVT on a motorcycle. I prefer torque converters myself, being familiar with them, and knowing they work and are reliable. But pretty much any type of transmission will work better and last longer than a CVT. Even the old Buick Dynaflow (also known as "does not go") was better than a CVT.
As usual you have no clue what you are talking about. Both of my CVT scooters have pretty good acceleration AND top speed for their weight and engine power. They can also climb steep hills. Would they do better with a Manual? Probably, but I doubt it would be that big of a difference.

The Aprilia Mana is a motorcycle with a CVT. My Aprilia dealer sold a bunch of them. It has a 850cc V twin motor. The tech there told me that he has replaced a number of belts at the 12000 mile recommended interval but they never showed much signs of wear.

Automatics with torque converters? Sorry Jerry, there are plenty of examples of those that are unreliable. Did you ever hear of chrysler/Dodge minivans?
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:27 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
.
edit out some stuff here

Automatics with torque converters? Sorry Jerry, there are plenty of examples of those that are unreliable. Did you ever hear of chrysler/Dodge minivans?
The 604 chrysler tranny has always given me good service. It IS very sensitive to fluid, and needs the pan drained and refilled (put in a drain) every 10K miles or so. The controller does not handle fluid temp viscosity changes well, so you need to get the updated one. Shift to neutral at longer stops in the summer to reduce heat and put on a big external cooler, that you can cover in the winter. A bottle of Gunk transmedic at 75K helps keep the seals conditioned. Then use a 1/4 bottle with each fluid drain and refill, Can't call that a change. Then I ran it to over 200K no issues so did some friends Like all things, it is possible to keep a poor design running if you know the issues. Allpar web site was invaluable. Most do not believe me, even the tranny shop people I knew then. One of them bet me $20 one had to see the car and looked to see it was never removed. His comment was, you have the only one and handed me the $20. He then also advised his customers differently. Point is, some things do not tolerate neglect, some do. Some unreliable things work well for some people. Others like my sister can tear up an anvil with a Qtip.

So, rather than bitch, lets direct him to the site with suggestions to optimize his CVT. Then we see if bitchin is more fun than ridin. I supect I know the answer.
Rod
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:23 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post

The Aprilia Mana is a motorcycle with a CVT. My Aprilia dealer sold a bunch of them. It has a 850cc V twin motor. The tech there told me that he has replaced a number of belts at the 12000 mile recommended interval but they never showed much signs of wear.






My buddy's Mana. A nice motorcycle.

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Old 11-16-2013, 08:28 AM   #49
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50% failure rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
The 604 chrysler tranny has always given me good service. It IS very sensitive to fluid, and needs the pan drained and refilled (put in a drain) every 10K miles or so. The controller does not handle fluid temp viscosity changes well, so you need to get the updated one. Shift to neutral at longer stops in the summer to reduce heat and put on a big external cooler, that you can cover in the winter. A bottle of Gunk transmedic at 75K helps keep the seals conditioned. Then use a 1/4 bottle with each fluid drain and refill, Can't call that a change. Then I ran it to over 200K no issues so did some friends Like all things, it is possible to keep a poor design running if you know the issues. Allpar web site was invaluable. Most do not believe me, even the tranny shop people I knew then. One of them bet me $20 one had to see the car and looked to see it was never removed. His comment was, you have the only one and handed me the $20. He then also advised his customers differently. Point is, some things do not tolerate neglect, some do. Some unreliable things work well for some people. Others like my sister can tear up an anvil with a Qtip.

So, rather than bitch, lets direct him to the site with suggestions to optimize his CVT. Then we see if bitchin is more fun than ridin. I supect I know the answer.
Rod
All the information in the world won't change his mind....it'll just give him more to argue about and twist towards his own, narrow point of view.

Agree about some unreliable things working well for some....simply minimize it's weaknesses, and lavish it with preventative attention!

Those Chrysler Minivans boasted a 50% transmission failure rate at below 60000 miles. I owned 2 of those vehicles, and if left to it's own designs ( ie-let it do it's thing with out forcing it into/out of gears it wasn't ready to be in. "Driven gently") I had no issues with the tranny on either vehicle. In fact my Grand Voyager was the most comfortable long range hauler I've ever owned.

The simple fact is though that your average soccer mom, (or anyone non-sympathetic to the machinery) isn't going to nurture that type of service from a less than trustworthy item.

The other simple fact as it relates to scooters, CVT's and this thread is....CVTs are the industry standard now, they deliver millions of miles/hours of relatively low maintenance punishment in everything from scooters, to golf cars, atv's, sleds etc, so the basic technology MUST be sound. But most importantly CVT systems deliver the type of performance and operational simplicity the BUYING public demands and at a price point they are willing to pay for.

If there were "true automatics" available on scooters or motorcycles, jerry would
bellyache about how expensive that vehicle was.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:19 AM   #50
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It IS a cheap, second rate setup.

you are never going to convince people that know what they're talking about that CVT's are cheap, second rate setups....why you continue to argue it as fact instead of your own (second rate) opinion is pretty stale.
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:29 PM   #51
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Its simple, JerryH is so full of it and also cheap, when he passes from this earth, to save money on a casket, they can give him an enema and bury him in a match box.
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
It IS a cheap, second rate setup. I knew that long before I ever had one fail. It also has serious performance issues. Or rather, lack of performance issues. A manual transmission scooter of the same size will be faster off the line, and will have a much wider gear spread, from top to bottom. A CVT is usually optimized for top speed, giving it terrible acceleration. You can change this, and get better acceleration, but you will loose top speed. Unlike a manual transmission, or a real automatic transmission, you can't have it all. The reason these things are used in scooters and low end cars is because of one thing. They are CHEAP to build. Notice Honda uses a DCT in it's automatic motorcycles, and before that, a 2 speed with a torque converter. No one that I am aware of has used a CVT on a motorcycle. I prefer torque converters myself, being familiar with them, and knowing they work and are reliable. But pretty much any type of transmission will work better and last longer than a CVT. Even the old Buick Dynaflow (also known as "does not go") was better than a CVT.
Wow, and here I was just trying to offer experience and avoid whatever drama was going on in here, but damn dude your just ignorant.

So, let's avoid the discussion that you doing statistical analysis with a sample size of ONE.

I'm glad to know that you knew it was 'cheap and prone to failure' and proved it by having one cheap and easily repaired failure in 24 thousand miles. But go ahead and ignore that your one massive failure cost less than a geared transmission would destroy in oil over those same 24 thousand miles, oh and was repaired in a few minutes in you own garage.

Also go ahead and ignore that a CVT can put maximum gear reduction and maximum torque down at practically a stand still, something a manual cannot do, and keep thinking a manual will give you maximum acceleration. And if you think you can have acceleration or top speed clearly you have never branched out beyond your one scooter.

But hey, if you like a torque converter then more power to ya, nothing wrong with preferring one thing, but personally I would like to not have one orr two fixed ratios and a system's that just throws power away to make it work. A torque converter on a non-shifting 2 speed just allows a ton of slipping so the engine can be in a peak torque range, thus allowing acceleration on a fixed gear ratio. Just think if you could get that same peak torque and a proper gear reduction, like idk a CVT provides.

And wonder why manufactures don't offer CVT's more? Its because guys like you had one small issue unrelated to the fundamental design, base everything on a singular event, and proceed to badmouth everything remotely related.
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Old 11-23-2013, 05:30 AM   #53
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Hang in there, JerryH. You are pretty much the only interesting
addition to this forum. (The sheep run together and away from the
working dog, but are fairly predictable.)
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:27 AM   #54
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I had a belt fail on my Vespa ET4 while running flat out. I pulled over finished my commute in the bus and trailered the Vespa to the shop to replace it. Shit does happen but I think its important to note that the belt gave ample warning of imminent failure and I just rode to see if my instinct was correct. It was.
The symptoms I noted were lagging acceleration, as though the carburettor were bogging but the engine was running fine. Mileage was not excessively high.
I also had a cruciform fail in an old school Vespa and lost third gear until I bothered to have it replaced. That was my fault for not changing the gear oil and riding long and hard.

CVT works perfectly well for the intended use, urban short haul riding. If you plan to tour you need to carry a spare and learn how to install. Some performance is better, on off acceleration for instance than shifting, some is worse. Fun is where you find it, and some like shifting others don't.
Among scooter riders experience with automatic cars seem prevalent so automatic scooters make sense. Motorcyclists are used to shifting so winning an economically viable number of them over to automatics is tougher.
It's all about profits and CVT scooters sell.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:43 AM   #55
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If a hydraulically shifted "real" automatic transmission with a torque converter is so bad, how is it that the automatic transmission and torque converter in my front wheel drive 2001 Chevy has lasted 217,000 miles without any problems? I have to admit that with it being a later model FWD, that surprised even me. But it was maintained properly. Fluid changed every 10,000-15,000 miles, filter changed every 50,000-60,000 miles (AutoZone sells a replacement pan with a drain plug, allowing you to change the fluid with out dropping the pan) and I have never found anything in the filters. A properly built TH350/TH400 will easily last this long or longer. They were not built properly on the assembly line at the factory. Clearances in these transmissions are critical, being just a hair off will cut it's life in half.

Yes I know about the Chrysler transmission problems. These were Chrysler's first FWD transmissions, built back in the K car era. Just a bad design thrown together in a hurry to get Chrysler back in business as quickly as possible after the bankruptcy. And as was said, some maintenance helped a lot. It is amazing how long something will last if properly maintained. And with newer cars and motorcycles, that means more maintenance than the book calls for.


As for the belt failure, it had nothing to do with the cost. I got lucky, was close to home, had a cell phone, was in a cell phone service area, and had a road service plan. So it was mostly just an inconvenience. But it could have been very serious had the circumstances been different. And it wasn't 24,000 miles. That's what the scooter had on it, the belt had only around 4,000 miles.

I would not have been surprised if the Stella had broken down. That's why I never get too far from home on it. But a modern scooter that has been over maintained is not supposed to break down like that. However, I guess it could have been worse. It could have been a final drive failure on a new BMW.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:49 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
I had a belt fail on my Vespa ET4 while running flat out. I pulled over finished my commute in the bus and trailered the Vespa to the shop to replace it. Shit does happen but I think its important to note that the belt gave ample warning of imminent failure and I just rode to see if my instinct was correct. It was.
The symptoms I noted were lagging acceleration, as though the carburettor were bogging but the engine was running fine. Mileage was not excessively high.
I also had a cruciform fail in an old school Vespa and lost third gear until I bothered to have it replaced. That was my fault for not changing the gear oil and riding long and hard.

CVT works perfectly well for the intended use, urban short haul riding. If you plan to tour you need to carry a spare and learn how to install. Some performance is better, on off acceleration for instance than shifting, some is worse. Fun is where you find it, and some like shifting others don't.
Among scooter riders experience with automatic cars seem prevalent so automatic scooters make sense. Motorcyclists are used to shifting so winning an economically viable number of them over to automatics is tougher.
It's all about profits and CVT scooters sell.
CVTs are perfectly well suited for more than urban short haul riding as you call it.

Its simply a matter of making certain you are within the prescribed service life of the belt during your trip, and your CVT is in good condition....including the air inlet for cooling.

Thats not to say failure cant and wont happen, but just like your cruciform its a roll of the dice.

To apply jerry's (and yours) logic to this argument; 2 stroke motors suffer the same shortcomings. Built to a lower manunfacturing cost than a 4-stroke engine of equal displacement...."2 strokes are prone to overheat and then soft-seizing when run hard and long so best kept in an urban short haul environment". Jerry even calls this up when discussing his Stella.

(I know you know better conch....)

Fact is, CVT is a different evolution of technology and simply prone to it's own idiosyncrasies just like any other including 2-stroke motors and manual shifters. It's neither less, nor more reliable than a manual. Just different and with different potential fail-points.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
CVT works perfectly well for the intended use, urban short haul riding. If you plan to tour you need to carry a spare and learn how to install. Some performance is better, on off acceleration for instance than shifting, some is worse. Fun is where you find it, and some like shifting others don't.
Among scooter riders experience with automatic cars seem prevalent so automatic scooters make sense. Motorcyclists are used to shifting so winning an economically viable number of them over to automatics is tougher.
It's all about profits and CVT scooters sell.
I am a motorcyclist and used to shifting. I prefer a manual tranny in cars. On a scooter, a CVT just seems to make sense. I actually prefer the way the CVTs on my scooters work to the "slushbox" found on most of today's cars and trucks. However, I wouldn't buy a motorcycle with an automatic.

As for touring with a CVT scooter, I have changed the belts on both of my scooters so I know how to do it but to carry around the tools required are another matter. I carry a tire patch kit and basic tools but beyond that I'll do what most people do if their bike or car breaks down. I'll call a tow truck, or AMA MoTow in my case.

While I agree that smaller scooters are best suited for around town use, I see no reason you can't easily go on a long trip on a 200cc or larger scooter. I'd even argue that many of the bigger maxi scoots area designed more for long distance riding than around town use.

The most common cause of me being stranded by a broke down bike, or car, has been battery failure. Not just a dead battery that won't start the motor, but batteries that failed internally and wouldn't allow the bike/car to run at all. So should I start carrying around a spare battery?
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:17 AM   #58
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Nah. Batteries can be found anywhere. Even if it's the wrong size, you could wire it to work. Can't do that with a belt.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:23 AM   #59
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Nah. Batteries can be found anywhere. Even if it's the wrong size, you could wire it to work. Can't do that with a belt.
True, but you can get a belt shipped overnight to most places in the U.S.
If I was going on a really long trip or to really remote places, I'd probably carry more tools and a spare belt.

If I was going on a really long trip, I'd make sure I had a fairly new belt to start with.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:36 AM   #60
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This is a newer cvt on Honda's Forza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXONtOHswqY

Now I'll back out...
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