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Old 11-23-2013, 11:09 AM   #61
bandito2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
True, but you can get a belt shipped overnight to most places in the U.S.
If I was going on a really long trip or to really remote places, I'd probably carry more tools and a spare belt.

If I was going on a really long trip, I'd make sure I had a fairly new belt to start with.
It's always good to carry tools and a spare belt whether new or a used for emergency use while out on long trips. (short trips too for that matter) My Reflex with a 12000 mile belt replacement recommendation failed after 17500 miles while on a trip to the Catskill mountains in NY. And while pulling my fully loaded single wheel trailer at that! I carried a replacement belt and tools for the job. A major PITA ended up being only a minor annoyance. A non-issue really. A bike with a busted chain link could experience a similar situation. (MC riders carry spare links don't they?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
Point is, some things do not tolerate neglect, some do. Some unreliable things work well for some people. Others like my sister can tear up an anvil with a Qtip.

So, rather than bitch, lets direct him to the site with suggestions to optimize his CVT. Then we see if bitchin is more fun than ridin. I supect I know the answer.
Rod
Millions of riders puting millions of collective miles on vehicles with CVT drives over many, many years renders his argument rather pointless. If CVTs were really considered to be crap, they would not have the success that they have. I say blow him off and ignore the putz. He can go on being unhappy about CVTs while the rest of us continue to be happy and have fun with our CVT contrivances.

BTW, with all his (JerryH) posturing and bellyaching about CVTs, It begs the question as to why he even has and keeps the bikes with CVT drives that he has.
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bandito2 screwed with this post 11-23-2013 at 11:21 AM
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:46 PM   #62
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I love the CVT, it's a fantastic drive system. I'm _always_ in the right gear too which is great in all circumstances.

The CVT usually comes with a centrifugal clutch that people mistake as part of the CVT technology but isn't. On some scooters that clutch is too small but if you have a decent sized clutch (like on the SYM GTS300) it's a friend even in heavy stop-start traffic.

So from my CVT I get car (and many bike) beating acceleration from the lights up to a top speed of about 75mph (GPS). For pulling out of junctions I can always hit my max acceleration with ease - I merely twist the grip around. Gone are the days of hunting for neutral at traffic lights, I merely sit there and take of instantly with speed when the lights change.

CVTs are also excellent on winding mountain roads and hairpins because it selects the gear ratio for me, it's always on the case and I never have a sore foot from changing gear 4 times per corner.

Additionally my belt after 9,000km still looks like new. If I did need to change a CVT belt they are easy and light to carry, but you really need an impact driver to undo the CVT for on-the-go repairs.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:58 PM   #63
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From reading this I do see the complaint of changing belts. In the snowmobile world it was literally a 2 minute process. Pop the hood, twist the helix on the secondary and pull the belt off, putting the new one on was simply the reverse of that. ATV's were slightly more complicated, but usually the same process plus pulling and reinstalling the 6-10 small bolts in the cover.

Funny someone mentioned chains. It seems they last about the same amount of mileage (plus or minus depending on care) and are harder to replace and cost more to do so. Usually as difficult to change on the road, and usually do a whole lot more damage if they go bad. And that's not counting the gears, clutch, fluid, syncros etc that make up the actual transmission. Which, however unlikely it is, can go bad and usually cost a small fortune to replace.

Personally I like the tuning aspect of CVT's. A few weights and rollers, a spring or two, and if you want to go crazy a helix, and you can COMPLETELY change how your transmission reacts.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
BTW, with all his (JerryH) posturing and bellyaching about CVTs, It begs the question as to why he even has and keeps the bikes with CVT drives that he has.
I'm starting to think that's his primary hobby, followed by riding pt.'s.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:08 PM   #65
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I never ever had a single bad thing to say about CVT reliability until I had one fail. I have put around 50,000 total miles on scooters with CVTs. I never questioned their reliability. I thought that as long as they were properly maintained (and kept stock) they were pretty much bulletproof. But having a belt with only 4,000 miles on it shattered that illusion.

As for chains, I always considered them more likely to break than a belt, and have often carried a complete chain on long trips, especially off road trips. But I never had one break.

It would be almost impossible to replace the belt on a Vino 125 on the road. You have to drain the oil out to get the cover off. Yes it could be done, if you had the tools and parts and could get it to a place where you could work on it. If I could get it to a motel, and sneak it into the room, I could fix it. Or if I could get it to a Yamaha dealer or a scooter shop, they could fix it.


I have no choice but to keep the scooters. Nothing else is available. Every single new scooter sold in the U.S. has a CVT.

I have retired the Vino from long distance trips, and just keep it for running around town. I now use the Zuma 125 for longer trips. I don't yet know what is involved in replacing a belt on it, probably the same as the Vino, except you don't have to drain the oil.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I never ever had a single bad thing to say about CVT reliability until I had one fail. I have put around 50,000 total miles on scooters with CVTs. I never questioned their reliability. I thought that as long as they were properly maintained (and kept stock) they were pretty much bulletproof. But having a belt with only 4,000 miles on it shattered that illusion.

As for chains, I always considered them more likely to break than a belt, and have often carried a complete chain on long trips, especially off road trips. But I never had one break.

It would be almost impossible to replace the belt on a Vino 125 on the road. You have to drain the oil out to get the cover off. Yes it could be done, if you had the tools and parts and could get it to a place where you could work on it. If I could get it to a motel, and sneak it into the room, I could fix it. Or if I could get it to a Yamaha dealer or a scooter shop, they could fix it.


I have no choice but to keep the scooters. Nothing else is available. Every single new scooter sold in the U.S. has a CVT.

I have retired the Vino from long distance trips, and just keep it for running around town. I now use the Zuma 125 for longer trips. I don't yet know what is involved in replacing a belt on it, probably the same as the Vino, except you don't have to drain the oil.

Your CVT didnt fail.
A belt did.
One you installed.
So, it was either a defective belt, or something related to its installation.
It wasnt the CVT which failed....
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:49 PM   #67
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To be clear I did not say a cvt scooter cannot tour. I simply pointed out that if touring you need to be able to replace a cvt belt yourself, it is a specialized skill. Belts are hidden, they do not necessarily show signs of wear and high speed travel wears them out faster. That's all. It's not surprising because the belt is squeezed by variatiors as a form of ratio change, and stretched because it is the transmission transmitting power to the rear wheel.
It does a lot of hard work.

My pleasure in an old school Vespa derives from nostalgia and I can afford to have my ride professionally restored by a reputable company. It will not be a museum piece, period correct. It will be a daily rider. A properly set up factory spec P200 is a very low maintenance machine, gear oil changes, spark plugs as needed and with easy access to them, along with easy tire tire iron free changes. No belts, water pumps, etc with a corresponding low tech lack of performance. I accept my pleasure is mine own and I understand the joy most people get from cvt. I am very fond of my wife's ET4, now ten years old and running strong.

But a P200 in good order quickens my irrational pulse.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:07 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
To be clear I did not say a cvt scooter cannot tour. I simply pointed out that if touring you need to be able to replace a cvt belt yourself, it is a specialized skill. Belts are hidden, they do not necessarily show signs of wear and high speed travel wears them out faster. That's all. It's not surprising because the belt is squeezed by variatiors as a form of ratio change, and stretched because it is the transmission transmitting power to the rear wheel.
It does a lot of hard work.

My pleasure in an old school Vespa derives from nostalgia and I can afford to have my ride professionally restored by a reputable company. It will not be a museum piece, period correct. It will be a daily rider. A properly set up factory spec P200 is a very low maintenance machine, gear oil changes, spark plugs as needed and with easy access to them, along with easy tire tire iron free changes. No belts, water pumps, etc with a corresponding low tech lack of performance. I accept my pleasure is mine own and I understand the joy most people get from cvt. I am very fond of my wife's ET4, now ten years old and running strong.

But a P200 in good order quickens my irrational pulse.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/ Well said
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:29 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
To be clear I did not say a cvt scooter cannot tour. I simply pointed out that if touring you need to be able to replace a cvt belt yourself, it is a specialized skill. Belts are hidden, they do not necessarily show signs of wear and high speed travel wears them out faster. That's all. It's not surprising because the belt is squeezed by variatiors as a form of ratio change, and stretched because it is the transmission transmitting power to the rear wheel.
It does a lot of hard work.

My pleasure in an old school Vespa derives from nostalgia and I can afford to have my ride professionally restored by a reputable company. It will not be a museum piece, period correct. It will be a daily rider. A properly set up factory spec P200 is a very low maintenance machine, gear oil changes, spark plugs as needed and with easy access to them, along with easy tire tire iron free changes. No belts, water pumps, etc with a corresponding low tech lack of performance. I accept my pleasure is mine own and I understand the joy most people get from cvt. I am very fond of my wife's ET4, now ten years old and running strong.

But a P200 in good order quickens my irrational pulse.
Nonetheless, your particular penchant for old school, 2 stroke manuals doesn't make CVT belt driven scooters "intended" for "short haul, urban use" as you did state, any more than the differences in technology (and manufacturing cost) between 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines does.

People like you, who have toured extensively on 2-strokes have proven that time and time again.

Likewise, people who have toured extensively time and time again on CVT equipped scooters have proven that they are more than up to that task as well.
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Old 11-28-2013, 07:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
To be clear I did not say a cvt scooter cannot tour. I simply pointed out that if touring you need to be able to replace a cvt belt yourself, it is a specialized skill. Belts are hidden, they do not necessarily show signs of wear and high speed travel wears them out faster. That's all. It's not surprising because the belt is squeezed by variatiors as a form of ratio change, and stretched because it is the transmission transmitting power to the rear wheel.
It does a lot of hard work.

My pleasure in an old school Vespa derives from nostalgia and I can afford to have my ride professionally restored by a reputable company. It will not be a museum piece, period correct. It will be a daily rider. A properly set up factory spec P200 is a very low maintenance machine, gear oil changes, spark plugs as needed and with easy access to them, along with easy tire tire iron free changes. No belts, water pumps, etc with a corresponding low tech lack of performance. I accept my pleasure is mine own and I understand the joy most people get from cvt. I am very fond of my wife's ET4, now ten years old and running strong.

But a P200 in good order quickens my irrational pulse.
Yes indeed, very well said. There is more difference between a vintage Vespa and a new scooter besides lack of a belt. A vintage Vespa is a real machine, all metal, with real gears that can be changed manually, a clutch, a simple 2 stroke engine with no electronics, a carburetor, a real choke, and all the proper sensations that go with such a machine. It has a rough ride, handling and braking are not great but perfectly acceptable and safe, they are buzzy, and have squeaks and rattles, the exhaust has that wonderful 2 stroke smell. They are not only machines, but very primitive machines, which to me is what riding is all about. It provides a visceral experience that a new scooter cannot come close to. It has character and a personality. It is not cold and impersonal like modern bikes. It is something you can actually develop feelings for, a relationship with. It is something you want to keep forever, rather than replace every couple of years for the latest thing. And it takes a lot more skill to ride such a scooter properly than it does a new scooter, which provides a lot of satisfaction once you have acquired that skill.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:00 AM   #71
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Yes indeed, very well said. There is more difference between a vintage Vespa and a new scooter besides lack of a belt. A vintage Vespa is a real machine, all metal, with real gears that can be changed manually, a clutch, a simple 2 stroke engine with no electronics, a carburetor, a real choke, and all the proper sensations that go with such a machine. It has a rough ride, handling and braking are not great but perfectly acceptable and safe, they are buzzy, and have squeaks and rattles, the exhaust has that wonderful 2 stroke smell. They are not only machines, but very primitive machines, which to me is what riding is all about. It provides a visceral experience that a new scooter cannot come close to. It has character and a personality. It is not cold and impersonal like modern bikes. It is something you can actually develop feelings for, a relationship with. It is something you want to keep forever, rather than replace every couple of years for the latest thing. And it takes a lot more skill to ride such a scooter properly than it does a new scooter, which provides a lot of satisfaction once you have acquired that skill.
Another common fallacy by you regarding the Shift v. Automatic debate is that *somehow* shifters are more gifted riders than those that ride automatics.

Sorry Jerry...but BULLSHIT. The 2T smell, rattles, buzzing, and whatnot are personal, subjective things (preferences, actually and nothing more) granted, but the mere act of "shifting" while riding doesn't doesnt make you, or anyone else a more skilled rider than those that chose not to. Even though most everyone I know who does ride a twist-n-go also does, also owns or at least knows how to "shift a manual". It ain't rocket science. I've seen 16 year old girls with pony tails do it. If THAT'S your claim to riding fame, I feel badly for you.

Come take a ride out here with me and try to outride me on my GTS....I'll show you how unskilled a rider this auto-pilot is, and I don't claim to be anything more than old fat guy who has been riding scooters, AND motorcycles for over thirty years. We'll see who's got game.

Your frequent sweeping generalities (that "the japaneses are born scammers" statement you made elsewhere on ADV was so ridiculous it's laugahable...some of your best material yet) really speak volumes about you jerry....your vision of the world around you stops abruptly at the end of your nose. Can't see the whole picture without looking past that. Try it sometime.
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Old 11-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post
To be clear I did not say a cvt scooter cannot tour. I simply pointed out that if touring you need to be able to replace a cvt belt yourself, it is a specialized skill. Belts are hidden, they do not necessarily show signs of wear and high speed travel wears them out faster.
A decent modern scooter belt life will be around 20,000miles plus.
Therefore changing a belt before a long tour will guarantee you no belt issues. TBH you are more advised to check and change the reduction gear oil at the correct service intervals, the belt will generally be fine on it's own.

To change my belt I need 8mm and 10mm sockets, a 19 or 21mm socket and a locking lever and an extension bar. Not so difficult TBH, having replaced two sets of rollers I'm happy I could replace it on the road if I took my locking bar and a spare belt along.
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Old 11-29-2013, 02:30 PM   #73
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Not so difficult TBH, having replaced two sets of rollers I'm happy I could replace it on the road if I took my locking bar and a spare belt along.
Yes^^^
Also not rocket science.
Or voodoo.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:49 PM   #74
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I don't understand this argument. What is the point? To get everyone on one kind of scooter?
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:08 PM   #75
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Another common fallacy by you regarding the Shift v. Automatic debate is that *somehow* shifters are more gifted riders than those that ride automatics.

Sorry Jerry...but BULLSHIT. The 2T smell, rattles, buzzing, and whatnot are personal, subjective things (preferences, actually and nothing more) granted, but the mere act of "shifting" while riding doesn't doesnt make you, or anyone else a more skilled rider than those that chose not to. Even though most everyone I know who does ride a twist-n-go also does, also owns or at least knows how to "shift a manual". It ain't rocket science. I've seen 16 year old girls with pony tails do it. If THAT'S your claim to riding fame, I feel badly for you.

Come take a ride out here with me and try to outride me on my GTS....I'll show you how unskilled a rider this auto-pilot is, and I don't claim to be anything more than old fat guy who has been riding scooters, AND motorcycles for over thirty years. We'll see who's got game.

Your frequent sweeping generalities (that "the japaneses are born scammers" statement you made elsewhere on ADV was so ridiculous it's laugahable...some of your best material yet) really speak volumes about you jerry....your vision of the world around you stops abruptly at the end of your nose. Can't see the whole picture without looking past that. Try it sometime.
You totally misunderstood. The Stella (or a vintage Vespa) is what (I) want in a scooter, for all the reasons I mentioned. As for shifting, yes almost anybody can do it, but most don't want to. They want it done for them. Why do you think there are no modern manual shift scooters? Nobody wants to shift. To me, dealing with the quirks of a vintage scooter is mostly what riding a scooter is all about. Same with vintage motorcycles. All the modern stuff has taken most of the fun out of it.

And "modern" scooters do not deliver so much reliability for all you give up. To the guy who said the belt on a modern scooter should last 20,000 miles, my brand new oem belt lasted 4,000 miles.
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