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Old 11-29-2013, 09:08 PM   #76
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gogogordy View Post
Another common fallacy by you regarding the Shift v. Automatic debate is that *somehow* shifters are more gifted riders than those that ride automatics.

Sorry Jerry...but BULLSHIT. The 2T smell, rattles, buzzing, and whatnot are personal, subjective things (preferences, actually and nothing more) granted, but the mere act of "shifting" while riding doesn't doesnt make you, or anyone else a more skilled rider than those that chose not to. Even though most everyone I know who does ride a twist-n-go also does, also owns or at least knows how to "shift a manual". It ain't rocket science. I've seen 16 year old girls with pony tails do it. If THAT'S your claim to riding fame, I feel badly for you.

Come take a ride out here with me and try to outride me on my GTS....I'll show you how unskilled a rider this auto-pilot is, and I don't claim to be anything more than old fat guy who has been riding scooters, AND motorcycles for over thirty years. We'll see who's got game.

Your frequent sweeping generalities (that "the japaneses are born scammers" statement you made elsewhere on ADV was so ridiculous it's laugahable...some of your best material yet) really speak volumes about you jerry....your vision of the world around you stops abruptly at the end of your nose. Can't see the whole picture without looking past that. Try it sometime.
You totally misunderstood. The Stella (or a vintage Vespa) is what (I) want in a scooter, for all the reasons I mentioned. As for shifting, yes almost anybody can do it, but most don't want to. They want it done for them. Why do you think there are no modern manual shift scooters? Nobody wants to shift. To me, dealing with the quirks of a vintage scooter is mostly what riding a scooter is all about. Same with vintage motorcycles. All the modern stuff has taken most of the fun out of it.

And "modern" scooters do not deliver so much reliability for all you give up. To the guy who said the belt on a modern scooter should last 20,000 miles, my brand new oem belt lasted 4,000 miles.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:43 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
I don't understand this argument. What is the point? To get everyone on one kind of scooter?
"The argument", it seems is that someone here who prefers a certain type of scooter, does so while degrading both another type of scooter, and it's riders. Claiming both are inferior; scooter in design and reliability, and it's rider in skill required to effectively operate a PTW, since they aren't "shifting gears".

ANYONE who really knows anything about machines...all machines, also recognizes that machines, all machines have inherent weaknesses...idiosyncrasies I call them, that must be taken into account as part of the ownership and operational experience.

"To each his own" I say. Ride what you like. But don't stand on your soapbox, badmouth another man's choice in machine while professing your skill level is better or more "pure" than his because his choice in mounts operates differently yours.

Ludicrous.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:47 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
You totally misunderstood. The Stella (or a vintage Vespa) is what (I) want in a scooter, for all the reasons I mentioned. As for shifting, yes almost anybody can do it, but most don't want to. They want it done for them. Why do you think there are no modern manual shift scooters? Nobody wants to shift. To me, dealing with the quirks of a vintage scooter is mostly what riding a scooter is all about. Same with vintage motorcycles. All the modern stuff has taken most of the fun out of it.

And "modern" scooters do not deliver so much reliability for all you give up. To the guy who said the belt on a modern scooter should last 20,000 miles, my brand new oem belt lasted 4,000 miles.
Your belt either had an anomalous defect (possible), or got improperly installed or damaged during installation process (also possible).

You need to add some more "for me's", "I's" and "in my opinion's" to your posts jerry transforming them from the inaccurate and unsupported statements youre prone to make, to...just your opinion.
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:13 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
I don't understand this argument. What is the point? To get everyone on one kind of scooter?
Scootrboi,

The question was answered in post #3, but thanks to the wonders of the internet we get to have another 75 replies!!
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by John Bentall View Post
Scootrboi,

The question was answered in post #3, but thanks to the wonders of the internet we get to have another 75 replies!!
http://youtu.be/zANvYB93u2g
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:51 AM   #81
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The turn this thread has taken makes me laugh. Mostly, because I laugh at myself. I didn't think I'd want a scooter... all those years of riding motorcycles... I liked the "chunk" when shifting my Harleys - it sounded manly ... the "snick" when shifting my BMW sounded gentlemanly. Running through the gears, being in the right RPM range going in and coming out of corners - it was part of what made the experience so satisfying... being "in touch" with the machine.

I thought I'd feel like I was missing something with a CVT scooter. I even said pretty much that same thing to my wife in my why-we-don't-want-scooters part of the initial discussion. She countered with, "Your favorite thing on the truck is that Allison transmission - I've heard you say that to your friends." I hate when she uses my words to make her point... seriously, how do you argue with that?

When we first got the scoots, my left foot would twitch when I'd feel the need to shift... then, the scooter would do its thing and just keep accelerating. No fuss. I could gesture with my left hand at a stop light! Better than no fuss, this thing was like a magic carpet! Twist to go, squeeze to stop...easy, light weight, and just plain fun.

I think it's great that folks can enjoy a smelly ol' 2 stroke (I like the sound and smell of big ol' diesel engines on the boats I drive)... I don't want to be behind them at a long stoplight, though. And, if a person needs to shift something to enjoy the ride, I get that - hey, some drivers need to fuss with the radio all the time. Them shifting doesn't diminish my fun, no-shift experience. I am confident in my masculinity and know I still "control" this machine, even though all I have to do is twist the throttle. The scoot doesn't roar, it purrs. And I smile. Sometimes I just laugh out loud. This thing doesn't look "scooter traditional." It doesn't "announce my presence" as I pull up in front of an establishment. It is smooth, sleek, runs like a Timex watch, and does what I ask of it, almost like it can read my mind!

If others don't get that slick, no-fuss experience is a big part of the pleasure I get when riding these scoots, it doesn't make them luddites... I'm glad they have the opportunity to turn the clock back 40 years and enjoy their experience.

Ride your ride. It isn't a lifelong commitment - switch to something shifty any time you want. Putting down someone else's choice says more about you than them.

Many years ago, I bought my first Harley, a Sportster. I paid cash and felt I had "arrived." A guy I know (wouldn't necessarily call him a friend) said, "Yeah, that's almost a Harley." At first I was shocked that he was trying to piss on my parade, then I came to the conclusion that his opinion didn't really mean jack squat. Kinda like arguments on both sides of this discussion. I got over buying stuff to impress anyone a long time ago - I get what suits me. Well, as long as my wife says it's OK.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:53 PM   #82
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As I have said, I bought one of the first CVT scooters in 1984, and when I drive it, I really enjoy the CVT. Shifting the Heinkels is a lot of work in comparison. The reason I almost always use the Heinkel has nothing to do with the shifting.
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:51 PM   #83
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While I appreciate your argument (that there are moral implications to using new technologies, and new ≠ better) it falls flat when applied to this thread. CVT drives have been in use in various applications since the late 1800's, and were conceived of in 1490. The Zeneth Gradua is the earliest use of a CVT in a motorcycle that I am aware of. They were banned from hillclimb competition because of the "unfair advantage" provided by their transmission (the other competitors being limited to a single gear ratio due to the lack of multispeed gearboxes at the time). http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/200...ie-barnes.html

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Old 11-30-2013, 05:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
... I need a dose of reality.
Let's hope it works this time!
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Old 11-30-2013, 08:32 PM   #85
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The city of Vancouver, Canada, just mandated that all new houses must have lever door openers. No more doorknobs (except at City Hall).
Crap! Those circular doorknobs were so much better than these newfangled pos.

Damn, I'm turning into JerryH.
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:24 AM   #86
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September 8, 2009 - Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced today that it has developed a new automatic transmission, the CV-Matic*, which can be used in combination with Cub-style engines.

Quote:
The new system will be available with Cub-style scooters to be released in the ASEAN region starting in 2010.

The CV-Matic, features a new cooling system developed on the basis of Honda's small-motorcycle automatic transmission technology, which protects the drive belt from the high temperatures it is subjected to. This enhances the durability of the drive belt and allows for the more compact design with a shorter distance between pulleys
Mention is made that the NEW compact CV-Matic makes it possible to fit this new technology into the same space as the traditional cub-style auto-clutch transmission that's been in use since the cubs release in the 60s.







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Old 12-01-2013, 04:40 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
I did not mean your question was answered in post #3, I meant the OP's question was answered in post #3.

It seems you took it the wrong way - no offence was intended in my reply - hence the smilie.
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Old 12-01-2013, 04:44 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
Scootrboi,

I did not mean your post #75 was answered in post #3, I meant the OP post was answered in #3. It seems like you took it the wrong way - as a put down. Nothing of the sort was intended - hence the smiling face at the end of the post.

John
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:38 AM   #89
JerryH
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Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
While I appreciate your argument (that there are moral implications to using new technologies, and new ≠ better) it falls flat when applied to this thread. CVT drives have been in use in various applications since the late 1800's, and were conceived of in 1490. The Zeneth Gradua is the earliest use of a CVT in a motorcycle that I am aware of. They were banned from hillclimb competition because of the "unfair advantage" provided by their transmission (the other competitors being limited to a single gear ratio due to the lack of multispeed gearboxes at the time). http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/200...ie-barnes.html

You are correct about the CVT. It does not use any electronic technology at all. My rant got started by a word used by CaptnJim. Luddite. Most consider it to be an insult. I take it as a compliment, even though that was not the way it was intended. Go back to the beginning of the word.

1. Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laborsaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.
2. One who opposes technical or technological change.

As for number one, I think it was a noble thing they did. And they were right. If only see how far that has progressed today. Out of a job? You can thank technology for that.

As for number two, that describes me perfectly, for a great number of reasons. And no, I don't want to go back to the 1700s. For me, technology reached it's zenith during the late 1960s/early 1970s. Things had become reliable and worked well. Since then, things have been going downhill, with new technology doing more harm than good.

But back to the CVT. On paper it looks like it should work, and in practice it actually does work fairly well. It lacks the gear ratio range of a manual transmission, but on the other hand it is far simpler. It's main problem seems to be lack of durability. And that looks like it could be solved by using better materials to build them out of. High quality steel pulleys, steel rollers that do not develop flat spots, and belts that last a lot longer. The problem is that this would cost more, make the vehicle cost more, they wouldn't sell as well, and there would be less money made. It must be really frustrating for an engineer to work for a bean counter.
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:00 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bentall View Post
Scootrboi,

I did not mean your post #75 was answered in post #3, I meant the OP post was answered in #3. It seems like you took it the wrong way - as a put down. Nothing of the sort was intended - hence the smiling face at the end of the post.

John
No offense taken. Or very little, anyway.
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