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Old 12-01-2013, 09:15 AM   #91
gogogordy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
You are correct about the CVT. It does not use any electronic technology at all. My rant got started by a word used by CaptnJim. Luddite. Most consider it to be an insult. I take it as a compliment, even though that was not the way it was intended. Go back to the beginning of the word.

1. Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laborsaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.
2. One who opposes technical or technological change.

As for number one, I think it was a noble thing they did. And they were right. If only see how far that has progressed today. Out of a job? You can thank technology for that.

As for number two, that describes me perfectly, for a great number of reasons. And no, I don't want to go back to the 1700s. For me, technology reached it's zenith during the late 1960s/early 1970s. Things had become reliable and worked well. Since then, things have been going downhill, with new technology doing more harm than good.

But back to the CVT. On paper it looks like it should work, and in practice it actually does work fairly well. It lacks the gear ratio range of a manual transmission, but on the other hand it is far simpler. It's main problem seems to be lack of durability. And that looks like it could be solved by using better materials to build them out of. High quality steel pulleys, steel rollers that do not develop flat spots, and belts that last a lot longer. The problem is that this would cost more, make the vehicle cost more, they wouldn't sell as well, and there would be less money made. It must be really frustrating for an engineer to work for a bean counter.
You make some (rare) good points in this post, but they are certainly also still debatable. Just to provoke some further thought, and not to argue:

Things hadn't become as "reliable or worked as well in the late '60s/early'70's" as you may think they have, now looking back from late 2013. Cars and PTW's weren't "exactly" at the same place reliability, durability, safety, and efficiency-wise back then.

Having worked in a Goodyear Tire & Auto Center through my HS years keeping a car, domestic or otherwise on the towards 100k was a challenge to the owner, and a boon to the service center. A car with over 100k and still viable?...a rarity.

Even the VW, a "technological" marvel in it's day suffered from the need for super frequent valve adjustments, common #3 cylinder problems, engine fires (hose clamps on fuel lines? We don't need no stinking hose clamps on fuel lines!), clutch cable breakage, heaters that didnt heat, and other idiosyncrasies.

Older Vespas (Ive owned and adored my share of these) can easily be made to soft seize, suffer from clutch cable breakage, have marginal (by todays standards) brakes and suspension, require pretty frequent shift cable adjustment, and other faults pertinent to that "technology".

The human psyche tends to remember only the positive, and forget the negative when recalling things from the deep annals of time. (Anyone who has ever thought getting back together with an old flame for instance was a good idea, then quickly realizes they "forgot" about much of the stuff they didnt like first time around, or at least hoped those qualities somehow disappeared during the interim knows this to be true)

Point Im really trying to make is...these are the good old old days!

I'm not attempting to diminish your preference for older, simpler stuff, but an appreciation for the fact that machines evolve constantly, and your 1970's technology Vespa or VW or Model T was once cutting edge, but still frought with imperfections.

This is the exact same scenario you're faced with now, and while it doesn't make the new stuff less "good", (or more good ) but it is what it is. We live in a snapshot in time, and someday someone will likely be espousing these good old days when "internal combustion powered CVTs ruled the roads", and "why Hydrogen powered scooters aren't so reliable or soulful to ride!"

So, enjoy what you enjoy...nostalgia is a very strong tonic which you seem predisposed to and thats cool. For those of us who see the bigger picture, and can appreciate what todays "technology" is, what brought it to this point, and can get enjoyment across that broader spectrum of vehicles thats cool too.

Count me into the latter group, and you wont hear me "dissing" the old stuff, or judging riding skills by what a man is piloting....
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:24 AM   #92
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Yeah, I restored a 1957 Cushman Eagle a few years back. It was not nearly as much fun as I thought it would be. I must have forgotten how crude they were. With todays technology cars and bikes run better, run longer, are more trouble free than they have ever been. The good old days are not always that good.

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:22 AM   #93
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Easy there, big fella (Jerry H)...

Here is the exact quote where I used the term Luddite:

"If others don't get that slick, no-fuss experience is a big part of the pleasure I get when riding these scoots, it doesn't make them luddites... I'm glad they have the opportunity to turn the clock back 40 years and enjoy their experience. "

See that high-lighted, italicized word: DOESN'T???

As in: I'm defending those who like their machines any damn way they like 'em. You like 'em old, I like 'em new, with modern technology. That doesn't make your preference right and mine wrong or vice versa.

I NEVER said you or anyone else is a Luddite.

Last I checked, everyone here is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion, as long as they don't get nasty. You folks here have never seen me nasty. I save that for special occasions that generally involve life and/or limb. Whether someone thinks fuel injection or CVT is good or bad sure as hell doesn't fall into that category. I may tease a bit, 'cause that's just the way I am... but, I am NOT in the shit business... don't give it, don't take it.

More than once, I have written here "ride your ride." I don't put down anyone else's choice, don't see the benefit in others doing that. On more than one occasion when the villagers have wanted to head to Chandler with pitchforks and torches (or get moderators involved), I have defended your right to your opinion. And, I have called "bullshit" on an occasion when what you said was... well, bullshit.

I don't need anyone putting words in my mouth OR twisting my words. I'm a married guy - my mouth gets me into trouble enough at home, even when I don't mean for that to happen. I like this forum and the folks who make it interesting.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The rest of us are entitled to ignore that opinion if we don't agree. I don't see the point in arguing something like CVT... like it or don't. I'm gonna ride mine and enjoy it.

Here's some advice you can take or not: when someone is defending you, don't read it wrong and take to the dictionary to see if you've been wronged.

DOESN'T


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Old 12-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #94
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When I jokingly threw down the gauntlet, a term of chivalry used in defending one's medieval lady love -my girlie Vespa in that case- I got a multi paragraph rant from the cheerful captain turning my joke into a life or death accusation. Not a pleasant riposte. So in an effort to redirect the conversation here is a happy picture of my cvt Vespa 60 miles from home at Windley Key State Park.
No problem keeping up with and passing cages on the overseas highway.
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:44 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post

As for modern technology in general (that not involving vehicles) It is a mixed bag. The internet is a great thing. It provides access to the whole world right from your laptop. But it has serious security issues. Cell phones are great for emergencies, but they are being abused on an unbelievable scale. More people are being injured and killed by cell phone using drivers than drivers impaired in any other way, including alcohol and drugs. The so called "social media" has virtually destroyed personal relationships. I recently read an article in the news about someone filing for divorce, claiming their spouse had ruined their sex life by taking their smart phone to bed with them. I myself witnessed 2 people knock each other down accidentally, on the sidewalk in front of a McDonalds. They were walking toward each other, very close to the curb, and both were so engrossed with their smart phones the walked right into each other and fell off the curb. This is supposed to be a good thing?


Modern technology has also cost workers millions and millions of jobs. My local Walmart has 12 self checkouts, with one person monitoring them. 11 jobs lost. Is that a good thing? Are people REALLY better off with this new technology?


From Star Trek TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer" Quotes from James T. Kirk.

Do you know the one- "All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by ..." You could feel the wind at your back, about you ... the sounds of the sea beneath you. And even if you take away the wind and the water, it's still the same. The ship is yours ... you can feel her ... and the stars are still there"

"There are certain things men must do to remain men. Your computer would take that away"

People are not meant to live in a world where everything is done for them. As we begin to rely more and more on technology, we slowly start to become less human. We are already starting to exist in a virtual world. Reality is beginning to lose it's meaning. We are losing some of are most basic skills. Cursive writing is no longer being taught in many schools, and basic math is also on it's way out. Why? because a computer can now do these things for us. So now the emphasis is on how to use a computer. And that is also quickly changing. Keyboards are becoming obsolete. My daughters new smart phone operates with voice commands. Last time we went out to dinner, I couldn't even talk to her, because she refused to put the thing down. She would rather talk to a techno-toy than her own dad.

And as bad as things already are, they are getting worse , and fast. We used to live in fear of nuclear war. Now we are facing an even greater danger. Technology. At present, it still takes people to design and build this stuff. But that will also change. Today many people actually work FOR a computer. At some point we will become unable to build this technology, or even repair what we have. And we will have become so dependent on it that we can't live without it. Then what?

More lines from the same episode of ST-TOS

Captain James T. Kirk: "Machine over man, Spock? It was impressive. Might even be practical"

Mr. Spock: "Practical, Captain? Perhaps. But not desirable. Computers make excellent and efficient servants; but I have no wish to serve under them. Captain, a starship also runs on loyalty to one man, and nothing can replace it, or him"


Fortunately I will not live long enough to see all this happen. What a way to end the human race. I actually think I would prefer nuclear war. I'm going for a ride on my Stella. I need a dose of reality.
Jerry, this is an interesting post. While I don't agree with much of what you post, this one had some interesting stuff in it.

I can understand your aversion to modern technology. I tend to be a little behind in technology myself. Since you brought up cell phones, computers and Star Trek, I'm going to give you my opinion on this stuff. When I see people who are hopelessly addicted to there modern electronic devices, I am reminded of the Borg in Star Trek where they were all tied to the "collective" This is happening today. I don't think it will be to long before people start hardwiring their electronic devices to their brains. No more keyboards, touch screens or even voice commands. We will become the Borg, they will assimilate us, resistance is futile.

I also agree with Jerry that people are becoming more dependant on technology and less able to do things for themselves. This has been happening for hundreds, even thousands of years. Much of it is inevitable, but I still prefer to have some control over the machines I use. I am not against the benefits of modern technology but I want to be able to control it, not have it do whatever it wants because it "knows better than me" Many manufactures don't understand this and give us things like Linked brakes or ABS that can't be disabled on adventure bikes.

Newer is not ALWAYS better. In some cases new technology is just a marketing fad and fades away. Anyone remember Anti Dive devices on telescopic forks?

Sometimes the best technology loses out to the technology with better marketing behind it.

I'm not impressed with many of the new bikes available today. I think practicality has been lost in the name of "styling" and marketing fads. So what. Life isn't perfect. Enjoy those things you can and quite pretending the sky is falling.

Back to CVTs. The CVT in most scooters is actually a pretty simple and low tech device. The CVTs in some cheap Chinese scooters are junk like the rest of the scooter but the higher quality CVTs are pretty reliable if properly maintained. Jerry, you got a one defective belt and are ready to condemn all CVTs. Aren't you over reacting? How many miles have you put on your Japanese scooters before your first (and probably only) breakdown?
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Old 12-01-2013, 01:33 PM   #96
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the problem with JH is that he fears what he doesn't understand which is very normal, but in Jerry's case he is towards the end of the bell curve...we regress back to what is familiar to us. In Jerry's case the late 60's and early 70's right around when he was in high school (would be my guess). Many folks are very conservative in the sense that what ever was the hippest thing during their high school years is the pinnacle of their reality...either it be technology, fashion, etc.

I remember back in the early 90's at the mall I saw this dude fully dressed up in disco attire from head to toe he was styling, had the hair, bell bottoms, strut and everything. He fit right into the 70's era disco and his age matched too so he was stuck in the past, just like JH.

Reminds me of the movies Idiocracy, Wally and a few others that I forget the names of. It's got electrolytes and all that good shit!
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:02 PM   #97
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Rant on.

In support of JerryH, 40 years from now I can promise you folks will not be loving restoring cars, scooters or motorcycles from the past decade. Plastic ages & cracks, CDIs go bad and become unobtainium, and fuel injection systems will become too costly to rebuild. How about those damn touchy feely screens that control the radio, A/C, Nav, etc. You going to replace that when it goes TU? We are truly a disposable society. How many Mid 80s vehicles do you see on the roads? When is the last Old Omega or Chevy Citation you saw running? How about an Audi Fox or a 5000? Other than Jeeps, some pickups and diesel Mercedes most everything in the past 30 years gets scrapped for parts once it's expensive electronically controlled components start to fail.

I still see old VWs on the road- hell they weren't great vehicles, but I promise you I could keep one running indefinitely, same as my MGB or my P200E, but my 2006 BMW will never live to be 33 years old like my Vespa.

While these may very well be our 'good old days' you will have a hard time convincing me that all of the 'stuff' we now have has made our lives better- it's brought safety and convenience, but there has been a price. How many of us are hooked to our smart phones 24 x 7 so we can support our glorious employers. Some improvement... Ok- Rant Off

Now please quick focusing on JerryH just because he's an easy target- Ya'll got scooters here, right? Go ride the dang things whether 2t, 4t, CVT, manual or whatever. They're fun. Let's have some. Cheers guys.
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:41 PM   #98
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..............................................
Go ride the dang things whether 2t, 4t, CVT, manual or whatever. They're fun. Let's have some. Cheers guys.
Good idea. I went out and rode my old tech., manual tranny, kick start only motorcycle today.



Tomorrow I'll ride my CVT scooter
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:58 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by conchscooter View Post


When I jokingly threw down the gauntlet, a term of chivalry used in defending one's medieval lady love -my girlie Vespa in that case- I got a multi paragraph rant from the cheerful captain turning my joke into a life or death accusation. Not a pleasant riposte. So in an effort to redirect the conversation here is a happy picture of my cvt Vespa 60 miles from home at Windley Key State Park.
No problem keeping up with and passing cages on the overseas highway.
Nice photo. Dang, when you posted this...

Quote:
"Alright Jim love you. I sailed a catamaran so I am used to sailors thinking I'm weird. I am not much good with smiley faces but I will give it a shot"
I thought we both understood we were both joking? And now, I made a "life or death accusation"??? Come on, let's just play nice.

I started a joke in that thread about Vespa's long-running pretty girls on scooters ads suggesting that Vespas were "girly", to which you responded with stuff about "piss and vinegar" and suggestions of what I should read to be informed how manly Vespas are. I think one of us did get worked up about that joke, but I can damn sure guarantee you that it wasn't me. Tongue in cheek. Really, I am sorry if anyone gets offended at my joking around.

I thought by now, folks here would realize I am here for the fun of it. I would like to go on public record to state that I have not made "life or death accusations" to or about anyone here. Certainly not to someone who proclaims their "love". Here's the thread, if I have been out of line...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932328

I'll be in my corner, thinking about what a bad boy I've been. I don't take my self too serious, I assumed no one else did... two in one day. Maybe I'm the only one getting my jokes?? In that case, I'll stop kidding around.

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Old 12-01-2013, 05:12 PM   #100
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The thread that wouldn't die

Post #100.
Glad to be a part....

Edit...dammit! What I meant was post #101....
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:24 PM   #101
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Rant on.

In support of JerryH, 40 years from now I can promise you folks will not be loving restoring cars, scooters or motorcycles from the past decade. Plastic ages & cracks, CDIs go bad and become unobtainium, and fuel injection systems will become too costly to rebuild. How about those damn touchy feely screens that control the radio, A/C, Nav, etc. You going to replace that when it goes TU? We are truly a disposable society. How many Mid 80s vehicles do you see on the roads? When is the last Old Omega or Chevy Citation you saw running? How about an Audi Fox or a 5000? Other than Jeeps, some pickups and diesel Mercedes most everything in the past 30 years gets scrapped for parts once it's expensive electronically controlled components start to fail.

I still see old VWs on the road- hell they weren't great vehicles, but I promise you I could keep one running indefinitely, same as my MGB or my P200E, but my 2006 BMW will never live to be 33 years old like my Vespa.

While these may very well be our 'good old days' you will have a hard time convincing me that all of the 'stuff' we now have has made our lives better- it's brought safety and convenience, but there has been a price. How many of us are hooked to our smart phones 24 x 7 so we can support our glorious employers. Some improvement... Ok- Rant Off

Now please quick focusing on JerryH just because he's an easy target- Ya'll got scooters here, right? Go ride the dang things whether 2t, 4t, CVT, manual or whatever. They're fun. Let's have some. Cheers guys.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2982116...n/photostream/

Made to last seemingly forever.
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:33 PM   #102
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Rant on.

In support of JerryH, 40 years from now I can promise you folks will not be loving restoring cars, scooters or motorcycles from the past decade.
Of course not. 40 years from now I'll be lucky if the nice lady in the rest home washes my weenie for me.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:31 PM   #103
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Tell me about it- I had my own project mess going on this week...

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Old 12-02-2013, 02:54 AM   #104
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Tell me about it- I had my own project mess going on this week...

Now that looks like a good time.
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #105
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IMO, technology, specifically computer technology, is taking away many of the things that give life meaning, to me anyway.
...he writes...on his computer...by choice...
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