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Old 11-28-2013, 11:55 AM   #61
gitsum79
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You can just unplug the bystarter and hook it up to any 12 volt battery source including your scooter battery. Put a ruler underneath it and after a couple of minutes the plunger/needle should extend a few millimeters.

If you live with a mild winter climate you could probably seal the enrichment hole and do without. Another idea is to buy an automotive control cable and fashion a manual choke using your old bystarter and plunger/needle assembly. I used this trick on both two-stroke and four-stroke scooters. Two-stroke engines/carbs seem to be more cold blooded than their four-stroke brethren.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitsum79 View Post
You can just unplug the bystarter and hook it up to any 12 volt battery source including your scooter battery. Put a ruler underneath it and after a couple of minutes the plunger/needle should extend a few millimeters.

If you live with a mild winter climate you could probably seal the enrichment hole and do without. Another idea is to buy an automotive control cable and fashion a manual choke using your old bystarter and plunger/needle assembly. I used this trick on both two-stroke and four-stroke scooters. Two-stroke engines/carbs seem to be more cold blooded than their four-stroke brethren.
You say unplug the bystarter, but it looks to me like the two wires just go into a big black wire that goes under the floorboard, so there is no coupling to unplug as far as I can tell. My tech book shows these two little neat electrical couplers but I'm not seeing it.



I understand the test you're recommending; I just can't see a way to do it without actually cutting the wires which I haven't wanted to do.

Another question while you're here: What would you use to plug the hole? And are you talking about the hole where the needle goes or where the bystarter attaches to the carb, or both? Whoops, that's more than one question.

I find this bystarter a bit confusing as I believe it works opposite than most other choke systems I could be wrong about that. The important thing to me is understanding that if it's not working, does that mean the mixture is too rich and would that make the idle die once it's warmed up, which is the exact problem I'm having.

Thanks for your help, as well as everyone else's. It's great having so many experienced scootbots to bounce off of.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:05 PM   #63
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The enricher circuit is a small passage that adds extra fuel to make the fuel mixture richer for starting and running the engine before it warms up. A 12 volt current runs through the bystarter warming and melting a ball of wax that allows a spring to extend the plunger/needle closing the enricher circuit hole. Generally when the motor is warm the carb is warm too and the wax stays melted, so the bystarter plunger stays closed (extended) unless the engine cools down enough to solidify the wax again.

If you follow the wires under the floorboard their should be a connector/plug somewhere.

Closing the little enricher passage where the needle goes will effectively close the circuit disabling the bystarter. A dab of JB Weld or a drop of solder will work. You can take apart the bystarter and remove the needle and fasten the assembly back on the carb to keep dirt and contaminants sealed out.

It is possible that the fuel mixture is too rich when the engine is warmed up because the enricher circuit stays open. But in my experiences the enricher circuit can add enough fuel to affect the overall carb tuning also, though most noticeable in the lower throttle settings.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:52 PM   #64
JerryH
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Originally Posted by RedArrow View Post
You say unplug the bystarter, but it looks to me like the two wires just go into a big black wire that goes under the floorboard, so there is no coupling to unplug as far as I can tell. My tech book shows these two little neat electrical couplers but I'm not seeing it.



I understand the test you're recommending; I just can't see a way to do it without actually cutting the wires which I haven't wanted to do.

Another question while you're here: What would you use to plug the hole? And are you talking about the hole where the needle goes or where the bystarter attaches to the carb, or both? Whoops, that's more than one question.

I find this bystarter a bit confusing as I believe it works opposite than most other choke systems — I could be wrong about that. The important thing to me is understanding that if it's not working, does that mean the mixture is too rich and would that make the idle die once it's warmed up, which is the exact problem I'm having.

Thanks for your help, as well as everyone else's. It's great having so many experienced scootbots to bounce off of.

In that picture, the green and yellow wires go to the connector, which is that round black thing. It is rubber. You just grab a hold of it and pull it off, just like a spark plug wire. The bystarter is under it, and just screws into the carb body, again much like a spark plug. It can be replaced, or you can just leave it out and plug the hole, and leave the plug disconnected. Just zip tie it out of the way.

I do not know exactly how a bystarter works. I have owned a number of scooters that had them, but never worked on them. My Stella, which is a copy of a vintage Vespa, still has a choke.

The 2 screws on the front side of the carb are the idle speed adjustment screw, and the idle air screw. The one in the very center is just an idle speed adjuster. It adjusts how far the slide can close. The idle air screw, or pilot screw, is used to adjust the idle air/fuel mixture. The further out you turn it, the richer the mixture becomes. If you did not have this screw out, remove it and spray some carb cleaner in the hole. There is a tiny passage in there that can get plugged up. Then put the screw back, turn it all the way in till it seats lightly, and back it out about 2 turns. Final adjustment is best done with the engine idling if possible. There will be a spring behind the screw, and possibly a washer as well.


I just checked the diagram, and those yellow and green wires do unplug on the other end. They have bullet style connectors on them, which means each wire has a connector. The connectors are probably covered in clear plastic. Unfortunately the bystarter assembly is no longer available from Honda. Oh, and it looks like there is a pinch type clamp, similar to what you would find on a fuel line holding the bystarter in place.
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Old 11-28-2013, 09:05 PM   #65
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Old 11-28-2013, 09:31 PM   #66
Wentwest
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Don't go pulling on the bystarter wires. It's not like a sparkplug.

If you plug up the circuit you have to plug up the jet hole and the air passage, and I used the inner cylinder and needle from a broken bystarter to do that. Before you do that follow the advice to follow the lines down and disconnect them, then remove the half circle clip that holds down the bystarter and then pull it out, gently. There are o-rings in there that you do not want to tear. If they leak air, lots of things don't work very well.

One tell tale, besides running too rich when warm, is that adjusting the idle mixture screw does not seem to make much difference at all. If that's true, the bystarter is not closing off its circuit.
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Old 11-29-2013, 04:47 PM   #67
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Again, I'm amazed and thankful for so many of you who stepped forward to share your knowledge in experience in all things bystarter.

Bystarter. A month ago I'd never heard of the word. Now it's popping up in my dreams.

I would have answered everyone sooner but I spent most of the day in the garage and it turned out to be quite interesting. Why? Because I learned something today, and any day I learn something is a good one, especially when it creeps up on you, taps you on the shoulder, and takes you by surprise. Probably the best kind of learning if you ask me, because those are the lessons that really stick. OK, enough prelude.

After convincing myself that my idling problems were due to a bad bystarter, I was half ready to yank the darn thing and go manual. I mean, I'd never really tested it, mostly because that page in my shop manual looked intimidating when I couldn't even find the darn wires. But then I realized that that was because I'd never really looked for them. So I followed the wires where they disappeared under the floorboard and wouldn't you know it, they made a quick U-turn and then ran up to an easily-accessible junction cluster pretty much right over the carb. It couldn't have been easier. See what I mean?



Feeling a bit embarrassed, I dove in. Pulling them apart was a snap (not literally).



Here's my ohm reading. Specs say toss it out if it reads 10ohms or more. Looks OK to me, which at the time was disappointing. I wanted the bystarter to be as bad as I thought it was, and it wasn't cooperating.



So, on to test two: Measure the needle and then hook it up to 12v. This is the before reading.



And this is my Jed Clampett jumper set-up. Yes, those are paperclips. But it worked.



So here's the reading about 5 minutes later. The bystarter was warm to the touch. I guess that hi-tech wax was doing its thing.



Resistance dropped a bit, too.



So after all that, I decided the clean the carb. Again. I thought I'd cleaned it good the first time, but after testing the bystarter I was suddenly forced to question my previous efforts. A tip of the mechanic's hat to those inmates who counseled a good carb cleaning the first time. You got this one right.

I'm happy to report that after reinstalling the carb, it started up and ran great. There was even an extra little scooter-type note in the engine idle that had been missing before. I couldn't be happier. I went three times around the neighborhood and it didn't stall out once. Now I can concentrate on learning to ride instead of worrying about stalling out at every stop. What a difference. I may still have to tweak the idle speed, but still, what a difference.

And as a way of giving back, here's my Tip of the Week: Want to clean your carb parts but can't afford one of those fancy sonic cleaners? No problem! All you need is a little Yankee Know-How crossed with some Scottish tight-fistedness. See, a common electric razor is all you need:



It really works!



Oh, and thanks for posting the video of those kids. I expect to see them on the X Factor one of these days. Thanks again to everyone for your help. Next week I'm off to the DMV to take my written test so I can then get my M1 endorsement, along with changing my front tire between practice runs. It should be a fun week!

~ Tootles
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:01 PM   #68
DaBinChe
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So after all that, I decided the clean the carb. Again. I thought I'd cleaned it good the first time, but after testing the bystarter I was suddenly forced to question my previous efforts. A tip of the mechanic's hat to those inmates who counseled a good carb cleaning the first time. You got this one right.

And as a way of giving back, here's my Tip of the Week: Want to clean your carb parts but can't afford one of those fancy sonic cleaners? No problem! All you need is a little Yankee Know-How crossed with some Scottish tight-fistedness. See, a common electric razor is all you need:


Oh, and thanks for posting the video of those kids. I expect to see them on the X Factor one of these days. Thanks again to everyone for your help. Next week I'm off to the DMV to take my written test so I can then get my M1 endorsement, along with changing my front tire between practice runs. It should be a fun week!

~ Tootles
It's a Honda all you gotta do is clean the carb and just ride!

What's the cleaning solution you used? I had thought about doing the same but don't have an electric razor. Just recently finally got a sonic cleaner off amazon for $25.

CA DMV M1 test is a breeze.

Now all you got to do is:


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Old 11-29-2013, 08:34 PM   #69
JerryH
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Glad you got it going. I never thought much of those sonic cleaners. I take the jets and put them in a glass jar with some carb cleaner, let them soak, shake them up, let them soak again, and then clean them with a wire (not just any wire, it has to be the small E string from a guitar. Don't use paperclips, pins, needles, or anything like that. They can damage the jets) I have seen jets so plugged up that no amount of sonic cleaning would have cleaned them. I've spent as much as half an hour gently working a guitar string through a jet that was plugged up with something as hard as metal. Probably corrosion from ethanol gas. I had to replace the main jet (and the float bowl) on a friends Honda generator. He had left gas in it for over a year. The gas evaporated, leaving just the ethanol, which rusted the steel float bowl and plugged up the main jet so badly they could not be saved. I've seen ethanol damage many times before, but I have to admit I was shocked when I removed that float bowl. It looked like it was full of rusted steel wool.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:30 PM   #70
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We'll have you zipping around on that scoot in no time. Once the tuning and the cleaning and the tightening and the testing is done, and it runs great, I end up missing the challenge of solving some puzzling thing or other, and I start shopping for another sad, neglected Honda to bring back to life. There's just nothing like the joy of hearing that engine start running right.

By the way, I've never seen a Honda scooter with the bystarter screwed in like that. On the bigger Elites it's clamped in. Same with the Gyro.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:31 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by DaBinChe View Post
It's a Honda all you gotta do is clean the carb and just ride!

What's the cleaning solution you used? I had thought about doing the same but don't have an electric razor. Just recently finally got a sonic cleaner off amazon for $25.
100% Sea Foam. Love the stuff. The first time I used some off the shelf aerosol carb cleaner. I think the Sea Foam actually did a better job. I hate "sacrificing" half a can to the soak tank because the stuff isn't cheap, but you can find it on sale if you look and the rewards using it this way are worth it.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:42 AM   #72
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Glad you got it going. I never thought much of those sonic cleaners. I take the jets and put them in a glass jar with some carb cleaner, let them soak, shake them up, let them soak again, and then clean them with a wire (not just any wire, it has to be the small E string from a guitar. Don't use paperclips, pins, needles, or anything like that. They can damage the jets) I have seen jets so plugged up that no amount of sonic cleaning would have cleaned them. I've spent as much as half an hour gently working a guitar string through a jet that was plugged up with something as hard as metal. Probably corrosion from ethanol gas. I had to replace the main jet (and the float bowl) on a friends Honda generator. He had left gas in it for over a year. The gas evaporated, leaving just the ethanol, which rusted the steel float bowl and plugged up the main jet so badly they could not be saved. I've seen ethanol damage many times before, but I have to admit I was shocked when I removed that float bowl. It looked like it was full of rusted steel wool.
My bf is an erstwhile musician so I bet we've got a a spare E string floating around here somewhere. That idle jet hole is really a tiny one!

Do they add ethanol to all gasoline or is it just certain brands? Sounds like something that it would be a good idea to avoid.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:49 AM   #73
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We'll have you zipping around on that scoot in no time. Once the tuning and the cleaning and the tightening and the testing is done, and it runs great, I end up missing the challenge of solving some puzzling thing or other, and I start shopping for another sad, neglected Honda to bring back to life. There's just nothing like the joy of hearing that engine start running right.

By the way, I've never seen a Honda scooter with the bystarter screwed in like that. On the bigger Elites it's clamped in. Same with the Gyro.
I've got to admit that my overpowering emotion during this entire process has been more of one of frustration than of satisfaction. But I can see the possibilities. I guess another thing involved is me being rather busy in my life right now with other things and so the time I spend with my Honda would rather be spent riding than on some seemingly mysterious idle problem. If I was retired and could spend every day out in the garage, I think the situation would be different. But this whole carb thing is one challenge I won't mind looking back on.

That said, I can see the satisfaction of bringing some under-appreciated and neglected bike back to life bolt by bolt. There is something deeply satisfying in that, certainly. Folks who don't work on bikes must get it from something else, but it seems to answer some basic human need to bring order out of chaos, or something like that.

I think I need some more coffee....
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Old 11-30-2013, 09:44 AM   #74
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Don't you think that would be a great name for a pizza delivery company?

Order From Chaos!

I'll have a large mushroom and red onion please. Double anchovies for my noisy neighbor with the high blood pressure!

And, just so you keep some perspective, remember that without that little red Aero you would never have met a bystarter or all the strangely helpful people you found here.

And next time you feel a little hungry, Order from Chaos.
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:09 AM   #75
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100% Sea Foam. Love the stuff. The first time I used some off the shelf aerosol carb cleaner. I think the Sea Foam actually did a better job. I hate "sacrificing" half a can to the soak tank because the stuff isn't cheap, but you can find it on sale if you look and the rewards using it this way are worth it.
Ah yes sea foam that stuff works wonders. You can still reuse the stuff just pour it thru a few coffee filters and good as new. Actually after filter it pour it right into your Aero tank. I normally get it at wally world, sometimes I find it in a gallon can and it is cheaper that way.
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