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Old 12-06-2013, 06:21 AM   #106
MotoTex
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
With the GPS enabled, they have you within 50 feet. With it off, all they can do is locate the cell tower you're connected through.
They can use multiple cell towers to triangulate the position of the phone with as good or better accuracy than GPS (no military offset). Many phone manufacturers default to cell tower positioning for navigation and use GPS as a second source in limited coverage areas.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:37 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
They can use multiple cell towers to triangulate the position of the phone with as good or better accuracy than GPS (no military offset). Many phone manufacturers default to cell tower positioning for navigation and use GPS as a second source in limited coverage areas.
There is no military offset anymore. The difference is just that the military can use two frequencies and is better able to offset the influence of the ionosphere.

Then there is WAAS, EGNOS, and assisted GPS that all improve accuracy some. Under normal circumstances that is more precise than triangulation I would think.

The problem is rather that in cities it is sometimes easier to get cell signals than satellites.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:18 AM   #108
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I keep a slab of bacon in my pockets.
That's hilarious, I've never heard that before.

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Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
I keep a half bag of donuts (fresh).
That's hilarious, I've never heard that before.

A lot of good info in this thread so far. I found the tips in the Rideapart article to be fairly useful. Unfortunately the human factor does come into play. While MOST cops are decent guys and gals out just doing their jobs, there are some assholes in the mix. If you get zapped by one of them, nothing will help.

For the majority of us, I find this to be helpful: Be nice. Be honest. If you are going with the flow of traffic because you don't want to be the hood ornament for some soccer mom's Yukon, say so (in a nice way). If you just got a new bike and it is so smooth and fun you just wanted to let it run for a bit, say so (in a nice way).

Most officers I have known are less concerned with speed if it is under 10 mph over the posted speed limit. 15+ is right out. This "grace" does not apply to turnpikes that get federal funding, municipalities that use traffic enforcement as a means of raising capital, and certainly does not apply to construction zones.

BTW the tracking via cell phones is being challenged in many states. In Maine Chapter 402- LD 1377 (An Act to Protect Cellular Telephone Privacy) just went into effect which basically requires a warrant to obtain electronic device content except in situations where there is an "imminent threat to life or safety". Of course someone could make the argument that you chaps who are doing 40 over the speed limit fit into that category.

Of course, there IS the option of going the speed limit....

Final observation. If you like to speed and get popped, man up and take responsibility. Nobody likes a crybaby.

(PS I LOOOOVE bacon and donuts, I just don't eat them very often because they aren't very good for you)
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:46 AM   #109
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Final observation. If you like to speed and get popped, man up and take responsibility. Nobody likes a crybaby.
Or, if there is no injured party, in many places you may have it dismissed for lack of jurisdiction using the remedies available in the rules of court. (been there, done that. Twice.) Though, frankly, paying the fine would be less hassle. It was the principle of the thing for me.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:47 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
They can use multiple cell towers to triangulate the position of the phone with as good or better accuracy than GPS (no military offset). Many phone manufacturers default to cell tower positioning for navigation and use GPS as a second source in limited coverage areas.
The deliberately introduced GPS errors only caused a degradation of accuracy of ~100m and that system was turned off in 2000 anyway. Error-correction DGPS systems similar to WAAS and EGNOS had already made it redundant.

Cell tower triangulation has an accuracy of no better than 100M or so under most circumstances. However, you could be tracked (and your speed calculated) over long distances, simply by tracking which cell towers your phone was connected to. Over anything more than a few miles, a 100m error becomes increasingly insignificant. Whomever was doing the tracking would never need to collect any information from a phone. They would be using the identifying code a phone transmits so the cell systems can keep track of it (required for the cellular phone system to function.)

The only thing law enforcement have to do that is a potential privacy issue, is to require the cell company to tell them whose phone the speeding ID belongs to. It seems to me, however, that they would still have to link that data to vehicle registration data and then be on the lookout for a vehicle which matches the description. Finally, they would have to prove that the driver matched the vehicle, matched the phone, in order to use the information. I doubt they would bother unless a phone appeared to be moving at a sufficiently high speed they wanted to send someone out to intercept the vehicle. If you have to have a car out there to catch someone, you might as well just keep using laser, vascar or other current methods of catching speeders.

I really doubt the police are going to be looking for common speeders using this approach. More likely they would track down this sort of information after a serious crash to try and determine what the driver(s) involved were doing before the crash. I suppose if they just selected in-car cell systems like on-star, they would have most of the data in one place at one time. However, that would then be unfair as older or non-cell-equipped vehicles would not be trackable.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:01 AM   #111
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Doesn't seem like good enough accuracy for the Google cars using either method. Wonder if they are using a third reference point broadcast like surveyors use to get the level of accuracy to navigate streets?
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Doesn't seem like good enough accuracy for the Google cars using either method. Wonder if they are using a third reference point broadcast like surveyors use to get the level of accuracy to navigate streets?
There are many ways to enhance positioning accuracy using local DGPS stations, inertial navigation from a known point, and others. The hardware required to obtain cm level accuracy from a survey car would not be terribly difficult to devise.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:19 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
There are many ways to enhance positioning accuracy using local DGPS stations, inertial navigation from a known point, and others. The hardware required to obtain cm level accuracy from a survey car would not be terribly difficult to devise.
Obviously. They are doing it. I found that they are using a Laser Range Finder to map the environment and compare to high accuracy digital maps. GPS, it seems, is only on the periphery as far as active guidance goes. So much for plugging an I-Phone into a usb port in the dash and leave the driving to Siri.

But, getting a citation to stick based upon cell phone movement would have every phone in the car, bus, aircraft on approach, etc. getting a ticket. Such an ill-conceived tactic would be short lived in the court system.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by LPRoad View Post
That's hilarious, I've never heard that before.



That's hilarious, I've never heard that before.

A lot of good info in this thread so far. I found the tips in the Rideapart article to be fairly useful. Unfortunately the human factor does come into play. While MOST cops are decent guys and gals out just doing their jobs, there are some assholes in the mix. If you get zapped by one of them, nothing will help.

For the majority of us, I find this to be helpful: Be nice. Be honest. If you are going with the flow of traffic because you don't want to be the hood ornament for some soccer mom's Yukon, say so (in a nice way). If you just got a new bike and it is so smooth and fun you just wanted to let it run for a bit, say so (in a nice way).

Most officers I have known are less concerned with speed if it is under 10 mph over the posted speed limit. 15+ is right out. This "grace" does not apply to turnpikes that get federal funding, municipalities that use traffic enforcement as a means of raising capital, and certainly does not apply to construction zones.

BTW the tracking via cell phones is being challenged in many states. In Maine Chapter 402- LD 1377 (An Act to Protect Cellular Telephone Privacy) just went into effect which basically requires a warrant to obtain electronic device content except in situations where there is an "imminent threat to life or safety". Of course someone could make the argument that you chaps who are doing 40 over the speed limit fit into that category.

Of course, there IS the option of going the speed limit....

Final observation. If you like to speed and get popped, man up and take responsibility. Nobody likes a crybaby.

(PS I LOOOOVE bacon and donuts, I just don't eat them very often because they aren't very good for you)
+1 on this. I've found myself getting out of a few infractions by being respectful and amiable, cutting my engine and cooperating within reason. This has been both in my cage and on my bike.
In my cage, at night, I will turn on the dome light and throw the keys on the dashboard, it make the situation a little less stressful for both the officer and myself, as I don't have a flashlight in my face and I show that I'm not hiding anything. So maybe we should start a new thread? "How do you deal with officers to weasel out of a ticket?"
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:46 AM   #115
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Judge shows how to beat citation

Scroll about half way down this article for the suggestion by a retired judge how to beat a ticket.

http://lucas2012infos.wordpress.com/...5-25-may-2012/
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ShineySideUp View Post
Scroll about half way down this article for the suggestion by a retired judge how to beat a ticket.

http://lucas2012infos.wordpress.com/...5-25-may-2012/
Interesting, but seeing that the website is fomenting UFO stuff, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Man, I'll definitely look into doing that next time. If anyone has done this procedure, could you share your experience?
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:12 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ShineySideUp View Post
Scroll about half way down this article for the suggestion by a retired judge how to beat a ticket.

http://lucas2012infos.wordpress.com/...5-25-may-2012/
Sir, that is some of the weirdest shit I've read in quite a while, even for this website!
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #118
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Sir, that is some of the weirdest shit I've read in quite a while, even for this website!
Ok, so I'm not entirely of my rocker huh?
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:21 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineySideUp View Post
Scroll about half way down this article for the suggestion by a retired judge how to beat a ticket.

http://lucas2012infos.wordpress.com/...5-25-may-2012/
Quote:
Originally Posted by AviatorTroy View Post
Sir, that is some of the weirdest shit I've read in quite a while, even for this website!
That HAS to be a joke. Surely NOBODY in their right mind would actually believe that pseudo-legal mumbo jumbo
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:11 AM   #120
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That HAS to be a joke. Surely NOBODY in their right mind would actually believe that pseudo-legal mumbo jumbo
Sadly, people do. I try to be nice and bite my tongue.
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