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Old 12-05-2013, 02:03 PM   #61
SteelJM1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garp View Post
I see you have been busy jumping to conclusions and haven't taken the time to actually read the thread. If you did, you'd see that I've said multiple times that there are pro's and con's to each approach. That's how I define "open minded". SteelJM1 on other hand seems to live in a world where things are Black or White, good or evil, with no room for grey. I'd suggest you point your comments about "Open Minded approach" towards him.
No I was just responding to concours listing every single part of a FI system that can go wrong, while only talking of a carb as if its a single entitity. And sprinkled with some snarkyness too. Because I can just as easily list

Float needle
Float needle seat
Floats
Float hinge
Pilot Jet
Main jet
Emulisifer tube
Slide
Needle
Diaphragm
coasting enriching circuit
Accelerator pump
All the gaskets

And so on. Those claiming that carb's are less complex than FI are barking up the wrong tree. They are complicated mechanical devices, wonders of engineering but have their shortfalls too.

Agreeing that both can have parts that break, the FI has the advantages of adjusting itself automatically to the conditions. Makes for a cleaner and more efficient burn.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:14 PM   #62
ttpete
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The biggest reason for EFI is that carburetors can't meter fuel precisely enough to pass emission standards. The companies tried to make closed loop systems using carbs but failed.

I was involved with vehicle emissions testing at Ford from 1968 to 1980, and we struggled to meet the standards using carburetors with all kinds of modifications and devices. We did things with cam profiles and timing, and also worked with ignition advance curves. Fuel systems engineers had carburetors flowed and tested by the hundreds and changed them out daily. Every test vehicle had a trunk full of carbs. Those of us who lived in the 1970s and drove the vehicles know how horribly bad they ran and performed. I'm glad to see carbureted vehicles gone.
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:08 PM   #63
ohgood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelJM1 View Post
No I was just responding to concours listing every single part of a FI system that can go wrong, while only talking of a carb as if its a single entitity. And sprinkled with some snarkyness too. Because I can just as easily list

Float needle
Float needle seat
Floats
Float hinge
Pilot Jet
Main jet
Emulisifer tube
Slide
Needle
Diaphragm
coasting enriching circuit
Accelerator pump
All the gaskets

And so on. Those claiming that carb's are less complex than FI are barking up the wrong tree. They are complicated mechanical devices, wonders of engineering but have their shortfalls too.

Agreeing that both can have parts that break, the FI has the advantages of adjusting itself automatically to the conditions. Makes for a cleaner and more efficient burn.
one carb on the shelf costs $300 or so. one complete fuel injection system on the shelf costs....

yes I know that was unreasonably unfair.

if the klr guys ever spring for efi because it's that much awesomerrrr wake me up.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:00 PM   #64
SteelJM1
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Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
one carb on the shelf costs $300 or so. one complete fuel injection system on the shelf costs....

yes I know that was unreasonably unfair.

if the klr guys ever spring for efi because it's that much awesomerrrr wake me up.
Haha, cant really add klr owners to the mix, theyre a different breed.

But i have seen FI DR mods.

If there was an aftermarket FI system available for purchase for a reasonable price for my DR, id jump. Better than any pumper carb.

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Old 12-05-2013, 10:08 PM   #65
Tripped1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelJM1 View Post
No I was just responding to concours listing every single part of a FI system that can go wrong, while only talking of a carb as if its a single entitity. And sprinkled with some snarkyness too. Because I can just as easily list

Float needle
Float needle seat
Floats
Float hinge
Pilot Jet
Main jet
Emulisifer tube
Slide
Needle
Diaphragm
coasting enriching circuit
Accelerator pump
All the gaskets

And so on. Those claiming that carb's are less complex than FI are barking up the wrong tree. They are complicated mechanical devices, wonders of engineering but have their shortfalls too.

Agreeing that both can have parts that break, the FI has the advantages of adjusting itself automatically to the conditions. Makes for a cleaner and more efficient burn.

Also you tune it with a laptop and a plug under the seat, instead of burning the shit out of yourself for hours at a time trying to get the needle height, floats, jets, idle adjustments just so.


I don't miss carbs at all, and despite having only fuel injected bikes for the last 15 years I have replaced nothing more complicated than dry rotted vacuum lines for the idle stepper on my Speed Triple. Now the bike didn't have any issues, but you could see daylight through one of the lines. I only found it because I was wondering where the sucking sound was coming from.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:40 PM   #66
Pecha72
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15 year on carb΄d bikes, now 7 years on FI bikes... I΄m not going back. I don΄t really have that much AGAINST carbs, they were okay, but FI works better just about everywhere (esp. high altitude), is more easily adjustable, and gets better throttle response and mpg.

Longevity - which fuel system type has been used in practically all cars all over the planet for the last 20 years? Seems to work pretty well on four-wheelers, too.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:00 AM   #67
farqhuar
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Another rider with more than 40 years of riding experience saying +1 for EFI - best thing that has happened to bikes in my lifetime.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:54 AM   #68
henshao
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I would take a SINGLE carb over EFI, but EFI over multiple carbs.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:10 AM   #69
Garp
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Originally Posted by henshao View Post
I would take a SINGLE carb over EFI, but EFI over multiple carbs.
I'd probably agree. Most of my FI experience has been on multi-cylinder bikes, and they have been largely flawless. The FI on my KTM690 was a moody SOB, prone to random stalling, hard starts etc, regardless of the map installed.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:50 AM   #70
Paebr332
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I am getting close to completing the rebuild of my 1988 Hawk GT. I am searching high and low for an easy way to get rid of the carbs and fit an EFI system. Down to researching building my own based on an Arduino controller. Having a brother who used to design fuel injection systems could prove useful. I just want the bike to start in any temperature and run well at any altitude/temperature and self-adjust for winter/summer fuel blends, etc. Carbs can't do that.

Replacement diaphragms will be the unicorn horn for a 20 year old carbed bike. Of course by then some enterprisiing person probably will be 3D printing them on demand.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:55 AM   #71
Garp
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Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
I am getting close to completing the rebuild of my 1988 Hawk GT. I am searching high and low for an easy way to get rid of the carbs and fit an EFI system. Down to researching building my own based on an Arduino controller. Having a brother who used to design fuel injection systems could prove useful. I just want the bike to start in any temperature and run well at any altitude/temperature and self-adjust for winter/summer fuel blends, etc. Carbs can't do that.
That sounds like a hell of a lot of work, to avoid a little bit of work. Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:05 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garp View Post
I'd probably agree. Most of my FI experience has been on multi-cylinder bikes, and they have been largely flawless. The FI on my KTM690 was a moody SOB, prone to random stalling, hard starts etc, regardless of the map installed.
Owning a 2001 BMW F650GS with FI (probably one of the first bikes that had FI?) I have made different experiences. The FI works flawlessly on my thumper and it is twelve years old now - never needed any cleaning, adjustment or maintenance at all.

Effortless cold starts, barely any power loss in high altitudes, no worries about getting it running again after it was standing for some time, *great* fuel economy, and so forth. I would not want to go back to carbs, even on a thumper.

The fact that cars have been running on FI systems for decades certainly contributes a lot to the fact that FI systems are as reliable as they are nowadays. A modern FI system is just something you do not have to worry about at all.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:22 AM   #73
SteelJM1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garp View Post
I'd probably agree. Most of my FI experience has been on multi-cylinder bikes, and they have been largely flawless. The FI on my KTM690 was a moody SOB, prone to random stalling, hard starts etc, regardless of the map installed.
I would say that that has much more to do with katoom than the basic principle of FI. Which is why i would hope they license 2 smoke FI from Polaris instead of trying it themselves and invariably fucking it up.

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Old 12-06-2013, 09:33 AM   #74
Tuna Helper
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Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
and I never understand anybody claiming they need to 'work' on carbs. I've never NEEDED to work on any carb, open an intake or add an exhaust sure, I've worked on a carb for that reason. Never because it broke. Never had a problem draining a bank of four for the winter, just leave the tank on and drain it too.

FI sure, had to work on those...fuel pumps croak, injectors get clogged.
I have. Buying a used bike that "ran when parked" only to find the slides, jets and tubes gummed up.

My CB750 could probably use a bit of carb tuning, but I don't ride it enough and it runs well enough, so why bother.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by LPRoad View Post
There are a lot of opinions, but there seems to be a ton of technical knowledge on this site so I ask you. If you were looking to buy a bike today, with the idea that you would have to keep the same motorcycle for say 20 years, would it make more sense to buy a fuel injected model or one that still uses carburetors? I have low to average mechanical skills, I believe I could learn to work on a carburetor. I have low to average computer skills, so I could probably learn to use a program that allowed me to adjust a fuel injected system. I will be living in a remote area on a low fixed income. Does one or the other make more sense for me?

next summer I plan to take the lump check I get at retirement for left over vacation and sick time and buy a new motorcycle. It is probably the last large batch of $ I will have until I kick it, so I am really trying to make a wise purchase.

I welcome all feedback.
I have two ~ 20-year-old bikes with FI and the fueling system still works like a champ!

I have owned a couple of 20-year old bikes with carbs (my airhead was ~20 when I got it) and while neither has been terribly difficult to fix, thay have had issues, such as rotted diaphragms and plugged idle jets. That said, replacing the fuel filter on the injected GS was a bit of a pain, and one of the throttle bodies is getting pretty worn.

On balance I'd say it's about even - but I'd still go for FI on any new bike today, regardless how long I was planning to keep it.
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