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Old 12-14-2013, 12:16 AM   #16
JerryH
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I wish Triumph would build a bike similar to the TU250, but with a centerstand and a one piece Bonneville type seat. If it came in at under $5K I would be interested, assuming they did not add another $1k in fees. That would put it too close to a nice used Bonneville.

I think there is a market out there for a classically styled small displacement Triumph. It's not as if Triumph has never built small bikes before. As long as the parts don't come from India. If the Royal Enfield were built in Taiwan or Thailand, I would certainly consider one. Indian quality just plain sucks. They can actually build a strong solid bike, but they just can't seem to get the engines and electrical right. A RE would probably last through several engines.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I wish Triumph would build a bike similar to the TU250, but with a centerstand and a one piece Bonneville type seat. If it came in at under $5K I would be interested, assuming they did not add another $1k in fees. That would put it too close to a nice used Bonneville.

I think there is a market out there for a classically styled small displacement Triumph. It's not as if Triumph has never built small bikes before. As long as the parts don't come from India. If the Royal Enfield were built in Taiwan or Thailand, I would certainly consider one. Indian quality just plain sucks. They can actually build a strong solid bike, but they just can't seem to get the engines and electrical right. A RE would probably last through several engines.
I agree. I'd like to see it in the 350 to 550cc range.

The bonnie and variants are too heavy. An air cooled single can be beautiful, simple and fun.

It would make sense for Ducati to do the same. All their bikes are so expensive. They need something cheap but still cool.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Andylaser View Post
Needs nobblies and longer forks.

That would break new ground for Triumph. That would sell. Regardless of where it would be made.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
It would make sense for Ducati to do the same. All their bikes are so expensive. They need something cheap but still cool.
I disagree with every sentence... but it's a Triumph thread so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:11 AM   #20
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Would have been nice if they'd at least shown prototypes at the Progressive bike shows. Same for the H-D piglets.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:50 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
I disagree with every sentence... but it's a Triumph thread so I'll leave it at that.
I agree with your disagreement.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by kraven View Post
I guess we'll see how it stacks up against the others in the market with a comparo article soon enough.

I want to say it should be a good bike, since it's Triumph. But then I recall where they build their stuff now.

Thailand? What's wrong with that? I haven't heard of any problems with the Bonnies, and isn't Honda building their 500's there too? Maybe I missed something????
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:34 PM   #23
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Thailand? What's wrong with that? I haven't heard of any problems with the Bonnies, and isn't Honda building their 500's there too? Maybe I missed something????
They also build good lemon grass soup.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
I agree with your disagreement.
You think something like this would be a bad idea?

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Old 12-18-2013, 07:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
You think something like this would be a bad idea?

Yes I do, especially for the USA. They haven't got a single cylinder engine to use. The resources it would take to develop one aren't trivial and the costs would have to be made up somewhere, as in, it would not be a cheap bike. Plus they haven't got unlimited manufacturing capabilities. So how many twins do they not build/sell just so they can build and sell a less expensive single?

The original comment said it made sense for Ducati to build a single. Makes sense to who? Where's the busines case?

It also said all Ducatis are so expensive. The inference there is all NEW Ducatis. And "so expensive" is subjective. I don't think they are all that expensive when I compare the cost of an 848 to a CBR600. They are certainly less expensive now (In the USA) then they ever have been. My 996 listed for... I think it was $17k in 2000? A 2013 Panigale lists for $18k. I think the small monster is under $10K? Ducati doesn't build cheap bikes. it makes no sense for them to try.

It also wanted a cheap, cool small single. Again, business case. How is a small company like Ducati supposed to make money designing and building a cheap single, likely at the the expense of a more expensive twin?

Cheap Ducatis - you can buy a mid 90s 900ss for less than a new CBR250. I've ridden a boatload of different Ducatis, The 900ss is one of my favorites, I've owned two and will llikely own another one before it's all over. No it's not a single.

You want a single? Bevels are getting more expensive to be sure, and they're all 40+ years old now. So no, they arent' really an option I suppose. But even back in the day the single shown in the quote wasn't cheap, why would a copy of it be cheap now? This is what the low end Ducati single looked like:



I have one of those, though mine is modified (see link in signature). It's a slow, the suspension sucks, and most people dont find the styling to be all that nice. With stock wheels it drags the pipe pretty easily (or so I've been told, mine has 17" wheels now). Point being the cheap single was never the cool single.

I don't know what cheap and cool means to other people. I don't see it happening without using a bike that was built somewhere other than Bologna, using the same suspension and brake bits everyone else making cheap singles uses. Basically I see a licensed CBR250 with different bodywork, bright red paint, and a Ducati logo on the tank.

Some might think that's cool. I think it'd suck. The logo wouldn't make it cool. The paint wouldn't make it cool. Everything that could make it cool would make it not cheap.

FWIW Ducati HAS built a cool single somewhat recently.


It wasn't cheap and they never released a street version. From what I remember reading, they coudn't build it for less than the cost of a twin. There's that pesky business case again.

Bottom line, there is no way a company the size of Ducati can compete with Honda (or any other huge company) on price, certainly not at the low end of the pricing scale. Even with Audi's backing, they simply can't do it.

And yes, I realize Audi's backing may change things. Production numbers may go up. Development budgets might too. But I don't see Ducati deciding to build botom dollar bikes any more than I see Audi coming out with an A0.5 to compete with the Ford Fiesta.

DesmoDog screwed with this post 12-18-2013 at 07:33 AM
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:40 AM   #26
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Ducati should have an inexpensive entry bike for the same reason all the other bike makers have one. If you can get people to start with the brand they will be more likely to stick with it.

Triumph will have the 250. Honda has the CBR250/300/500. Kawasaki has the Ninja300. Suzuki has the TU250 and that other ugly thing.

Even Harley is taking a stab at it with their new 500.

If Ducati could make a hip looking bike for under $5,000 they could get a piece of this market segment and maybe sell a million of them in India too.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
If Ducati could make a hip looking bike for under $5,000 they could get a piece of this market segment and maybe sell a million of them in India too.
If they're going to sell a million of them in India they have to first build a million of them. They can't do that in Bologna. So they'd need to be built somewhere like India. Or more likely Thailand. And Brazil.

As for luring buyers, yeah. You can do it with cheap entry level bikes. You can also do it with top end sport bikes. In either case, those won't be the bikes that pay the bills for the company. And they're going to develop the sport bike either way.

Hey, I'd like to see a Ducati single too. I already have three of them. But I do not want to see a low end single built to be as cheap as possible to lure in new buyers. If Ducati builds a single I want it to be a kick ass single. A 300 Ninja is over $5k with ABS, why would Ducati want to go cheaper than that? Even if they do start importing bikes made outside of Italy into the USA, I don't see a sub $5000 single as being one of them.

You're running a company that is aspiring to build 60,000 bikes per year, worldwide. The companies you'd be competing against measure their build numbers in millions per year. Do you really want to start trying to compete for the low cost part of the market, especially when that means less of your more expensive bikes can be built? I'm just not seeing it.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
If they're going to sell a million of them in India they have to first build a million of them. They can't do that in Bologna. So they'd need to be built somewhere like India. Or more likely Thailand. And Brazil.

As for luring buyers, yeah. You can do it with cheap entry level bikes. You can also do it with top end sport bikes. In either case, those won't be the bikes that pay the bills for the company. And they're going to develop the sport bike either way.

Hey, I'd like to see a Ducati single too. I already have three of them. But I do not want to see a low end single built to be as cheap as possible to lure in new buyers. If Ducati builds a single I want it to be a kick ass single. A 300 Ninja is over $5k with ABS, why would Ducati want to go cheaper than that? Even if they do start importing bikes made outside of Italy into the USA, I don't see a sub $5000 single as being one of them.

You're running a company that is aspiring to build 60,000 bikes per year, worldwide. The companies you'd be competing against measure their build numbers in millions per year. Do you really want to start trying to compete for the low cost part of the market, especially when that means less of your more expensive bikes can be built? I'm just not seeing it.
If Ducati were to build a thumper, I imagine it would be closer to a KTM Duke than a smallish, cheapo, entry level bike. As you say, if they built an entry level bike to sell in other parts of the world, it would have to be built in India or somewhere.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
Ducati should have an inexpensive entry bike for the same reason all the other bike makers have one. If you can get people to start with the brand they will be more likely to stick with it.

Triumph will have the 250. Honda has the CBR250/300/500. Kawasaki has the Ninja300. Suzuki has the TU250 and that other ugly thing.

Even Harley is taking a stab at it with their new 500.

If Ducati could make a hip looking bike for under $5,000 they could get a piece of this market segment and maybe sell a million of them in India too.

Be careful what you ask for. It would be pretty easy to rebadge a CBR250 as a Ducati and sell it for $5000. Same frigging difference. Who cares what name is on the tank if it is a bottom feeder? I sure don't. If they brought out a better small bore, great! Otherwise let them all keep making the slices of pie in India smaller. Eventually maybe they will look to the USA and build a bike with our needs in mind.

40-60 HP, 6 speeds, wide ratio, 300 lbs and good suspension and materials. A Adv Dakar, a SM, a DS, a moto 3 street racer and a retro cafe on the same platform. Hell, WTF! Build a cruiser version too! KTM is the only hope right now.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mobiker View Post
If Ducati were to build a thumper, I imagine it would be closer to a KTM Duke than a smallish, cheapo, entry level bike. As you say, if they built an entry level bike to sell in other parts of the world, it would have to be built in India or somewhere.

I'd agree with that. And they're already assembling bikes in Thailand from what I've read...
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