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Old 12-24-2013, 11:57 AM   #31
ChipsonFriday OP
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Thanks for the interest, support, and advice guys.

Keep it coming please. Have a Merry Christmas.


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Old 12-24-2013, 12:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ChipsonFriday View Post
Thanks for the interest, support, and advice guys.

Keep it coming please. Have a Merry Christmas.


Chips
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Old 12-24-2013, 02:38 PM   #33
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See if there are smaller wheels/tires for your ride. Thats probably the easiest way to reduce the gearing.
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Old 12-24-2013, 02:52 PM   #34
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Nitrous oxide.
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Old 12-25-2013, 12:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by knucklehead90 View Post
See if there are smaller wheels/tires for your ride. Thats probably the easiest way to reduce the gearing.
There's a lower rear for that wheel, but the cheapest 12" tire here costs
more then 2 sets of rollers for the CVT so it might not be the cheapest way.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:40 AM   #36
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Well it sounds like your best bet for improvement is either try the lighter weights first, and hope you can make the hill and not lose top speed, or invest in a performance pipe first before fooling with the weights.

If you can keep the stock weights and get the bump you need from the pipe you're probably better off (assuming lighter weights would affect top speed).
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:16 PM   #37
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How many miles are on this bike?

Depending on what engine it has you may find a nice tuning kit which has pipe, carb, tranny pieces of a known quantity.

I am assuming it is the carbed version of the engine in my bike. You could build a 15hp ripper very easily with that breeding stock.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:44 AM   #38
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Well it sounds like your best bet for improvement is either try the lighter weights first, and hope you can make the hill and not lose top speed, or invest in a performance pipe first before fooling with the weights.
Those performance exhausts like the Leovince ZX I mentioned bump the
power up usually in the last 10% of the rev range, which he will hardly
even reach with the stock CVT setup.

Power and torque are usually LOWER then stock with these pipes at lower
revs.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by brianwheelies View Post
How many miles are on this bike?

Depending on what engine it has you may find a nice tuning kit which has pipe, carb, tranny pieces of a known quantity.

I am assuming it is the carbed version of the engine in my bike. You could build a 15hp ripper very easily with that breeding stock.
..and have to rebuild it every 6 months or so, depending on how much
he rides. Anything over 8-9hp is a lot.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Those performance exhausts like the Leovince ZX I mentioned bump the
power up usually in the last 10% of the rev range, which he will hardly
even reach with the stock CVT setup.

Power and torque are usually LOWER then stock with these pipes at lower
revs.

I have to agree with this. I weigh 230ish, and have owned two 50cc scooters, an '05 Yamaha Zuma, and an '07 Honda Metropolitan. I live near some pretty steep mountains, and while both scooters would cruise along nicely at 40 mph on a level road, they came to a dead stop trying to climb. I also have a couple of 125cc scooters, and they will easily hit 55 mph on a level road, and while they will climb better than the 50cc scooters, they lug the engines badly. Rather than damage the engines, I turned around. I don't know whether they would have made it all the way to the top or not.

I also have a Genuine Stella 150, and even with a 25cc advantage, it is easily the slowest of my scooters as far as top speed goes. But it will climb anything. I climbed from 1200 feet to over 8000 feet with it with no problems, including a few long steep climbs of over a mile. I did have to downshift it from 4th gear to second gear to keep the engine speed up. So it was slow going, but the engine showed no signs of distress.

But here's what really gets me. I have this. It is a 1980 Puch moped, with a 2 speed automatic transmission. Not a CVT, it has 2 different speeds. It is centrifugally shifted, based on engine speed. When engine speed drops below a certain point, it downshifts. First gear is very low, about as low as first gear on a manual transmission. So while the bike is creeping along at about 10 mph up a steep hill, the engine is turning at about the same speed as it is at it's top speed of 30 mph. The engine is rated at 2 hp.





It may not look like it, but this little 50cc 2 hp 2 stroke, with a top speed of 30 mph, will climb anything, while keeping the engine near redline. I have carried over 300 pounds on it, from Mesa, AZ, to Forest Lakes, AZ, a distance of about 150 miles, and a difference in altitude from 1000' to 7738' on several occasions, with no problems at all. Yes, it took all day, but it made it just fine.

Now, what I get from all this, is that a CVT simply does not have a low enough gear ratio to climb well. A Yamaha 125 scooter has about 8 hp, yet a 50cc 2 hp bike will climb circles around it. This only seems to be the case with smaller scooters, and does not apply to maxi scooters. They have way more power, and possibly a wider gear ratio in the CVT as well.

The last paragraph is just my opinion, based on my actual experience stated above.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:02 AM   #41
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A CVT transmission in a scooter is designed for efficiency in urban environments. That dog leg of the rear pulley keeps them in a higher gear to give you more economy. Find an aftermarket rear pulley half with the straight guides(usually at two different slopes for adjustment) and your transmission will be a more active component when you need to maintain more mechanical advantage.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:26 PM   #42
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Some very interesting comments. Thank you.

I think I understand the problem with a CVT is that the lowest possible gear is when the diameter at the variator is at its smallest (rollers not 'deployed' and therefore the variator plates are apart and the rear (clutch) is at its largest diameter (plates closed).

So pulling away up a hill would require the gearing to be at its lowest (first gear). The clutch torque spring would hold the rear plates together depending on its rating. The key to a hill start then would be to increase the revs into some power band without moving the rollers too much and changing up a gear. The trick is to find the balance without losing some top end 'performance'!

The problem is that at some point in the rev range the rollers move out and the variator plate closes and so changes the gearing up.

Am I right in thinking that the lighter the rollers the less they are likely to spin out at a given revs? If so if I lighten the rollers and increase the strength of the clutch torque spring, in theory I could achieve the low gear I need to climb the hill. But at what cost?

Of course this is just my theory based on my newly acquired (and limited) knowledge of CVT.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:42 PM   #43
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Lighter rollers will delay the variator from closing. It can also have you exceeding the powerband for the given ratio and you will lose drive. The true way of adjusting a variator is by ramp angle alteration but this means getting a new variator. In fact, a performance variator may help your cause giving you the desired take of characteristics while still running out to the highest achievable top speed. With your stock variator you are stuck changing other parts of the transmission to focus on one characteristic while taking away another.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:47 PM   #44
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It's 50 cc's. While I don't know how steep the hill is, the thought occurred to me that you might be asking too much of it.
x2.
Takes more than wanting/wishing and hoping to get torque/power out of a 50cc scooter, even more so with a CVT. Kinda one of those "right tool for the job" things.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:06 PM   #45
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x2.
Takes more than wanting/wishing and hoping to get torque/power out of a 50cc scooter, even more so with a CVT. Kinda one of those "right tool for the job" things.
I am 50lbs lighter than the OP but my SR will pull from a stop up a steep hill to 40mph indicated without issue. His bike has considerably more tuning potential.
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