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Old 12-24-2013, 03:38 PM   #31
knucklehead90
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See if there are smaller wheels/tires for your ride. Thats probably the easiest way to reduce the gearing.
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Old 12-24-2013, 03:52 PM   #32
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Nitrous oxide.
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Old 12-25-2013, 01:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklehead90 View Post
See if there are smaller wheels/tires for your ride. Thats probably the easiest way to reduce the gearing.
There's a lower rear for that wheel, but the cheapest 12" tire here costs
more then 2 sets of rollers for the CVT so it might not be the cheapest way.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:16 PM   #34
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How many miles are on this bike?

Depending on what engine it has you may find a nice tuning kit which has pipe, carb, tranny pieces of a known quantity.

I am assuming it is the carbed version of the engine in my bike. You could build a 15hp ripper very easily with that breeding stock.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dabears View Post
Well it sounds like your best bet for improvement is either try the lighter weights first, and hope you can make the hill and not lose top speed, or invest in a performance pipe first before fooling with the weights.
Those performance exhausts like the Leovince ZX I mentioned bump the
power up usually in the last 10% of the rev range, which he will hardly
even reach with the stock CVT setup.

Power and torque are usually LOWER then stock with these pipes at lower
revs.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by brianwheelies View Post
How many miles are on this bike?

Depending on what engine it has you may find a nice tuning kit which has pipe, carb, tranny pieces of a known quantity.

I am assuming it is the carbed version of the engine in my bike. You could build a 15hp ripper very easily with that breeding stock.
..and have to rebuild it every 6 months or so, depending on how much
he rides. Anything over 8-9hp is a lot.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Those performance exhausts like the Leovince ZX I mentioned bump the
power up usually in the last 10% of the rev range, which he will hardly
even reach with the stock CVT setup.

Power and torque are usually LOWER then stock with these pipes at lower
revs.

I have to agree with this. I weigh 230ish, and have owned two 50cc scooters, an '05 Yamaha Zuma, and an '07 Honda Metropolitan. I live near some pretty steep mountains, and while both scooters would cruise along nicely at 40 mph on a level road, they came to a dead stop trying to climb. I also have a couple of 125cc scooters, and they will easily hit 55 mph on a level road, and while they will climb better than the 50cc scooters, they lug the engines badly. Rather than damage the engines, I turned around. I don't know whether they would have made it all the way to the top or not.

I also have a Genuine Stella 150, and even with a 25cc advantage, it is easily the slowest of my scooters as far as top speed goes. But it will climb anything. I climbed from 1200 feet to over 8000 feet with it with no problems, including a few long steep climbs of over a mile. I did have to downshift it from 4th gear to second gear to keep the engine speed up. So it was slow going, but the engine showed no signs of distress.

But here's what really gets me. I have this. It is a 1980 Puch moped, with a 2 speed automatic transmission. Not a CVT, it has 2 different speeds. It is centrifugally shifted, based on engine speed. When engine speed drops below a certain point, it downshifts. First gear is very low, about as low as first gear on a manual transmission. So while the bike is creeping along at about 10 mph up a steep hill, the engine is turning at about the same speed as it is at it's top speed of 30 mph. The engine is rated at 2 hp.





It may not look like it, but this little 50cc 2 hp 2 stroke, with a top speed of 30 mph, will climb anything, while keeping the engine near redline. I have carried over 300 pounds on it, from Mesa, AZ, to Forest Lakes, AZ, a distance of about 150 miles, and a difference in altitude from 1000' to 7738' on several occasions, with no problems at all. Yes, it took all day, but it made it just fine.

Now, what I get from all this, is that a CVT simply does not have a low enough gear ratio to climb well. A Yamaha 125 scooter has about 8 hp, yet a 50cc 2 hp bike will climb circles around it. This only seems to be the case with smaller scooters, and does not apply to maxi scooters. They have way more power, and possibly a wider gear ratio in the CVT as well.

The last paragraph is just my opinion, based on my actual experience stated above.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:02 PM   #38
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A CVT transmission in a scooter is designed for efficiency in urban environments. That dog leg of the rear pulley keeps them in a higher gear to give you more economy. Find an aftermarket rear pulley half with the straight guides(usually at two different slopes for adjustment) and your transmission will be a more active component when you need to maintain more mechanical advantage.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:26 PM   #39
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Some very interesting comments. Thank you.

I think I understand the problem with a CVT is that the lowest possible gear is when the diameter at the variator is at its smallest (rollers not 'deployed' and therefore the variator plates are apart and the rear (clutch) is at its largest diameter (plates closed).

So pulling away up a hill would require the gearing to be at its lowest (first gear). The clutch torque spring would hold the rear plates together depending on its rating. The key to a hill start then would be to increase the revs into some power band without moving the rollers too much and changing up a gear. The trick is to find the balance without losing some top end 'performance'!

The problem is that at some point in the rev range the rollers move out and the variator plate closes and so changes the gearing up.

Am I right in thinking that the lighter the rollers the less they are likely to spin out at a given revs? If so if I lighten the rollers and increase the strength of the clutch torque spring, in theory I could achieve the low gear I need to climb the hill. But at what cost?

Of course this is just my theory based on my newly acquired (and limited) knowledge of CVT.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:42 PM   #40
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Lighter rollers will delay the variator from closing. It can also have you exceeding the powerband for the given ratio and you will lose drive. The true way of adjusting a variator is by ramp angle alteration but this means getting a new variator. In fact, a performance variator may help your cause giving you the desired take of characteristics while still running out to the highest achievable top speed. With your stock variator you are stuck changing other parts of the transmission to focus on one characteristic while taking away another.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:47 PM   #41
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It's 50 cc's. While I don't know how steep the hill is, the thought occurred to me that you might be asking too much of it.
x2.
Takes more than wanting/wishing and hoping to get torque/power out of a 50cc scooter, even more so with a CVT. Kinda one of those "right tool for the job" things.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:06 PM   #42
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x2.
Takes more than wanting/wishing and hoping to get torque/power out of a 50cc scooter, even more so with a CVT. Kinda one of those "right tool for the job" things.
I am 50lbs lighter than the OP but my SR will pull from a stop up a steep hill to 40mph indicated without issue. His bike has considerably more tuning potential.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:22 PM   #43
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x2.
Takes more than wanting/wishing and hoping to get torque/power out of a 50cc scooter, even more so with a CVT. Kinda one of those "right tool for the job" things.
It's 50ccs, but so is my moped, and it climbs just fine. I believe it's because the mopeds first gear has a much lower ratio than what is available on a stock CVT. Both my 50cc scooters would hit 40 mph, the moped only goes 30 mph. And I am pretty sure that both scooters had more than 2 hp. The lower gear gives the moped more leverage. It's amazing what 2 hp will do with low enough gearing.

It does make sense that an aftermarket variator with the right design would go a long way toward helping the scooter climb by keeping the engine rpms up while climbing. I have very little doubt that a 50cc scooter is capable of climbing almost anything, if you can get it's full power to the ground.

Scooters do seem to be optimized for urban use. But I wonder how well a 50cc scooter would do in San Francisco.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:30 PM   #44
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Not so well in San Francisco. When I lived there while I was going to college I decided to buy a motor scooter to get around easier. In those days you could park on the sidewalk. In fact one day I had just parked in a car space and a cop walked up and said, "Get that scooter outa there. You're taking up a car space. Put it up on the sidewalk. Right here." He pointed to a suitable spot, so I did.

So anyway, when I went to buy a scooter the dealer said, "Forget the 50cc models. They can't get up the hills." He pointed to a Lambretta, which I bought. I can't recall the engine size but it was somewhere in the 150-200cc range, and of course it was a shifter. I had no trouble with hills.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:18 AM   #45
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Back in the '70s, pedal mopeds were the big thing. You could get many models with either a single speed or a 2 speed engine. The single speeds were fine for level roads, but would not climb. Pedaling was not much help, because the pedal drive was geared so low. If you needed climbing ability, a 2 speed was the way to go. When you encountered a hill, and engine rpms dropped, it would shift into first gear, and the engine rpms would go way up. In first gear at 10 mph, the engine would turn about the same speed as it would at 30 mph in second gear.

Mopeds are a fun ride. My 2 speed Puch will climb anything given enough time. You ride them like bicycles, on the shoulder. They are not legal on freeways, but there are a number of non freeway routes that will get you across the U.S. It's kind of like traveling by bicycle, except that you don't have to pedal. I used to do a lot of traveling on a moped, and passed quite a few bicycles. I remember feeling great about how I didn't have to pedal. Those old '70s mopeds had to be decarbonized quite often, you had to mix the oil and gas, and more than once I had to stop on the side of the road and adjust the points. I liked them so much that a few years ago, I bought a vintage Puch 2 speed. I would love to take a long trip on it, but I'm not 20 years old anymore and they are not very comfortable.
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