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Old 01-03-2014, 10:47 AM   #61
brianwheelies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
They use a heavier roller than they would if they were looking for it to perform at it's absolute best. By design, OEM roller setups tend to keep the bike from hitting the top of the RPM range. The OP is looking to do a lot with this scooter, from touring to off-road to a drag race, and it has a very small engine and a much narrower powerband than 4 strokes. In addition, for him to do what he wants to do, he needs to get it into and keep it in the powerband as much as possible. For the road, he should find the roller weights that give him both the start and stop hill climbing he needs and the ability to ride it 50 miles. He has a bunch of different weights, and the easiest way to get it to climb hills is to use the 5.5s or 5s. If they are too light for the long stretches, then he needs to find a compromise. Given his size though, it's going to be a lighter weight than for someone who weighs 100 lbs.
I am glad Cortez had one of these bikes to provide first hand info about it. You keep throwing out information that is only applicable to air cooled Zuma's or Chinese 2 stroke clones and not the OP's bike.

You should stick to first hand information and not reading some forum. Less misinformation will be spread that way.

Better yet, put up a link to owners who have went from Cortez' indicated 9g stock rollers to 5 or 5.5g roller weights trying to blow their engines, genius.

While you are at that, could you please stop posting about a Keeway in the Honda thread. Thanks.

Sorry OP. Hopefully you get at least some entertainment value from this. Highly recommend you find a forum dedicated specifically to your bike where you can mine data from owners or experience so you don't damage your bike.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:38 AM   #62
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Getting the best balance of acceleration and top speed for the style of riding/ terrain/load one puts their bike into is a dark scientific art of mechanical alchemy as far as I can tell....... but I've got some basic ideas.

From my understanding, it's all a complicated dance as to how the variator and its wieghts, clutch spring and available HP at given RPMs all work together to move the bike. Changing these elements around affects how quickly it accelerates and how effiectively it is able to put available HP to getting and keeping it up to speed.

Lighter weights allow the engine RPM to spool up getting to the power band RPMs relatively quickly.
Lighter weights need to be spun faster to be able to push the movable face in. This is essentially the equivalent of running in lower gears. The stiffer a clutch spring is, the higher the RPMs need to be to keep the variator face moving in to overcome the force of the clutch spring. This will tend to keep things down in the power band since as RPM increases beyond the power band, the HP begins dropping making it difficult to force the vaiator face in more to overcome the clutch spring; effectively limiting higher top speed.

Heavier weights Will force the movable face in sooner and cause the belt to begin forcing the pulley faces apart at the clutch end effectively going into a higher gear. Fine for top speed, but acceleration suffers because peak HP is just not there at lower RPMs for quick acceleration..

Load plays a part in that it takes more HP to move more weight. This is where the "low gear/light variator weights" set-up is better for initial acceleration than the "higher gear/heavy variator weights" This is what is needed for heavy loads and for climbing hills since this set-up is best for using the available HP/torque and getting the load moving at all.

It's all trade offs one thing for another. Torque, low end acceleration or Higher top speed at reduced RPM. Pick your spot and tune your system accordingly.

For this next part I am making assumptions, but they seem reasonable to me. Please feel free to correct me and clarify your reasoning if you think I am not correct.

It would seem that using light weights and a softer clutch spring would be about as effective as heavier weights and stiffer clutch spring except that the heavier weight system would engage the clutch sooner and maybe have a higher top speed at a given RPM.
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bandito2 screwed with this post 01-03-2014 at 11:51 AM
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:55 PM   #63
Cortez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
They use a heavier roller than they would if they were looking for it to perform at it's absolute best. By design, OEM roller setups tend to keep the bike from hitting the top of the RPM range.
While this is generally true, SF with it's stock rollers accelerates just a few
hundred revs below it's peak power output, and the revs go up slightly
only over 47-48mph.

1 gram less and you're bouncing off the limiter.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:04 PM   #64
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I've sold and ridden over 100 Speedfights in 2 years+ that I worked in a
dealership and saw them come and go later with different mods and
user experiences.

One that "stuck" with me for a while was when a guy put in a rather
cheap 68cc kit (I have no idea which manufacturer, but it was not the
polini/malossi bunch) on a completely stock scooter.

That bike was virtually as fast as the Speedfight 100 (air cooled 9hp,
2 stroke), and still quiet as stock. Funny thing is, the cylinder/piston
kit was cheaper then the stock 50cc replacement.

He did over 12k miles on it before I quit that job, so it was reliable too.

That thing would spin the rear wheel (bare in mind that this scooter is
only 200lbs or so) at full throttle from stand still. Ridden at a normal
pace the fuel consumption also wasn't any worse then stock.

I'd never use a sports variator or exhaust on mine. Mine DID come with
the Leovince ZX pipe, but I took it off. The scooter had same MPG figures
as my 650cc Kawasaki with it which makes no sense.

Anyways, SF and SF2 were rather specific scooters and a lot of knowledge
of different scooters doesn't apply here. The stock CVT and carb are good
enough even with a tuned engine.

I just wish Dr Pulley sliders were available back then so I could have experimented
with those too as I have in my Downtown 300 (and it did wonders).

Long story short, to the original poster, I'd get just slightly lighter rollers
and take it from there.

I hope there weren't many differences between different markets
regarding CVT parts. I'm not sure if the stock weights on mine were
9gr, that sounds a bit high.

I'm sure 5.5gr would blow the engine up in a few hours.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:03 PM   #65
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I think the smaller the engine, the smaller amount in roller weight change is needed. Best to think of it in a % change.
Clutch springs are more of an engine powerband thing. Raise the powerband, raise the strength of the cultch springs to raise the take-off rpms.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:09 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikeridermark View Post
Clutch springs are more of an engine powerband thing.
Only at the bottom end of the powerband, and it depends on whether you want to have control at parking lot speeds, or are only interested in hard acceleration.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:34 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post

I'd never use a sports variator or exhaust on mine. Mine DID come with
the Leovince ZX pipe, but I took it off. The scooter had same MPG figures
as my 650cc Kawasaki with it which makes no sense.
I'm sure 5.5gr would blow the engine up in a few hours.
If someone put a pipe on, they may have gone to a lighter roller too. That's a pretty common swap.
It miight help to know if this is an lc or ac speedfighter the OP is trying to sort out. Either way, he's not trying to make a reliable daily driver, he's trying to tune it to go up a hill that it's not going up now with the present set up, and enter a drag race, and ride it to work. 5.5 is not a very light roller in the world of 50cc scooters, and at the end of the day, the OP can put them in, try to go up the hill, and then ride it around a bit. And if he puts in heavier weights and it works better, that's okay with me too.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:51 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianwheelies View Post
I am glad Cortez had one of these bikes to provide first hand info about it. You keep throwing out information that is only applicable to air cooled Zuma's or Chinese 2 stroke clones and not the OP's bike.

You should stick to first hand information and not reading some forum. Less misinformation will be spread that way.

Better yet, put up a link to owners who have went from Cortez' indicated 9g stock rollers to 5 or 5.5g roller weights trying to blow their engines, genius.

While you are at that, could you please stop posting about a Keeway in the Honda thread. Thanks.

Sorry OP. Hopefully you get at least some entertainment value from this. Highly recommend you find a forum dedicated specifically to your bike where you can mine data from owners or experience so you don't damage your bike.
What anybody who knows scooters knows iss that clapped out Ditech pos you are trying to unload on someone is a bad experience waiting to happen. Apparently you've figured that out too, and are trying to make it someone else's problem before it goes south. That's the smartest thing I've seen you do on this forum, a much better use of your time than making nonsensical remarks after I post a comment. Cortez didn't indicate 9 grams was stock.
Finding a link to something on the internet is not the way to prove something works or doesn't.
The owner of the SF is a motorcyclist. He can try lighter weights, and if the motor is screaming, remove them. It's that simple. What he has in there now isn't working, and 5 or 5.5 grams are not crazy light for a 50cc 2T.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:06 PM   #69
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I can't think of what my Ditech bike has to do with this thread. Great to see you contributing more unfounded clutter based on ass'umption.

Keep going. We need more Ivy league posts.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:04 PM   #70
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I noticed these "low" weights on rollers some of you have mentioned. Made me a bit nervous as I have 16 gram 20x15 Dr. Pulley sliders on my SYM HD 200 EVO and they seem to work just fine. Peppy acceleration and a top speed near 80mph. But then it's a 200cc scooter. I suspect that makes a difference.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:17 PM   #71
brianwheelies
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All depends on variator design and HP.

My stock variator in the SR50 came with 5.3g weights. The Malossi Multivar 2000 came with 7.2g but 6.75g are optimal for most folks who are heavier.

One size does not fit all engines.

My RV250 comes with 22g rollers which are as heavy as rollers for bikes that are almost double its cc.

A Burgman 400 uses 19g weights. Yet again proving variator design and not engine size are the determining factor behind correct weight usage.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:24 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blugg1 View Post
I noticed these "low" weights on rollers some of you have mentioned. Made me a bit nervous as I have 16 gram 20x15 Dr. Pulley sliders on my SYM HD 200 EVO and they seem to work just fine. Peppy acceleration and a top speed near 80mph. But then it's a 200cc scooter. I suspect that makes a difference.
You suspect right. Here is an excellent table about the differences roller weights can make in Scooters ; http://fc.greensboroday.org/~epaynter/brcvt
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:52 PM   #73
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Ouch. A lot of over-analysis here, and some over-reaching. Fact is - CVT tuning is a balancing act. Change one thing, and it affects the operation in one way or another.

Facts = OP is a hefty guy. Mechanically, the scoot can't climb a certain hill. To climb a hill, the CVT must be in "low gear". To lower the "gear ratio" the belt must ride higher (larger diameter) at the torque driver pulley when the load of the hill slows the scoot down. The torque spring controls the effective diameter of the of the pulley. If the effective diameter does not increase under that load then the torque spring is too weak, or the variator weights are too heavy. To remedy, you need a stronger torque spring or lighter vario weights.

Thus, the original suggestion to lighten the roller weight would be the first place to try and remedy this situation - as the OP mentioned he had replaced the Torque Spring. If the Torque Spring had not been replaced, that would have been prudent, as they weaken with age. The key to tuning at this point is finding the right roller weights.

Still no go? The Torque Driver itself may be in need of greasing or replacement. Aftermarket TD's usually have several different ramp angles that alter the way the TD "shifts". This can make a noticeable difference in the performance.

The belt must be the proper length - even slightly off, longer or shorter, can affect performance markedly.

Increasing power will greatly help in getting up hills. Easiest way is with a de-restricted performance pipe. Piping up raises the powerband to higher rpm's. You must use lighter rollers, and stronger clutch shoe springs with a pipe as you have to get the motor revved faster to get into the powerband. If this balancing act isn't done right the scoot could run worse.

You must remember that with a twist and go scooter you have to tune to keep the motor in its powerband. The engine rpm's will be fairly steady as the CVT ratios control the scooter speed.

I'm think most of this has been mentioned in this lengthy thread. Hopefully, I have clarified the CVT operation some. Tuning these wee beasties to get everything balanced and working well can be frustrating, but it is worth it when you have a sweet running machine
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:15 PM   #74
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Dan said it.
That's the bottom line.

Also, with a 5hp engine, that scoot can run up vertical walls, it just needs
lighter rollers, and very little can do a lot.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:12 AM   #75
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Thanks for the input guys.

Dan, Your post nicely summarises my conclusions after reading through all of your posts. I suspected I needed to make/force the ratio into a low gear to get me up the hill. As I said early on, if I have a bit of speed when I enter the hill I can get to the top. However starting from a standstill I have no hope of even moving forward.
It's a bit like peddling a bicycle up a hill in a high gear - the same principle. Put the bicycle in top gear and try to peddle up a hill, it's not going to happen.

To clarify a couple of points then:

The SF is air cooled.
I have a new stock belt and variator with 8g weights
The torque spring is new (1000RPM). I have two other new torque springs which came in the set, a 1500 one and a 2000 one. (I haven't tried these)
The clutch springs are Mallosi Red.

So I agree that I need to keep the variator plates apart and the torque spring end closed to produce my low gear ratio at the same time as producing some power from the engine.

My only frustration is not knowing when the engine is in that powerband. No rev counter on the scoot.

The weather is set to improve and I have nearly finished the work I was doing on my other bike so I can soon restart the experimenting on the scoot.

Thanks again for the support.

Chips
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