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Old 01-02-2014, 08:35 PM   #16
TheReaper!
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Sitting on a chair (250cc scooter) in the passing lane on a California freeway during rush hour ? DEATH WISH ?

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:44 PM   #17
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Don't knock it til you've tried it, Reaper. Around here in Northern Cal the freeway doesn't go that fast during rush hour. And you can lane split. And it was 67 degrees and dry today, January 2. You want to be in Southeast Michigan, riding politely along on a freeway where you can't lane split, except maybe not now because it is 0 degrees and snowing, fine with me. But you're not in any position to tell me how to ride a California freeway.

Snarky abusive shots from you don't make this discussion board any better.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:52 PM   #18
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A lot of the fatigue you experienced is due to the difference in unsprung weight between a motorcycle and a scooter. The bigger displacement, the more unsprung weight, so displacement isn't always the answer. The scooters that have the engine mounted to the frame solve this problem, and are a lot more comfortable on the interstate. Motorcycles are great as far as time saved because you can lane split, etc, but they are extremely expensive to commute on, compared to scooters.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:41 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TheReaper! View Post
Sitting on a chair (250cc scooter) in the passing lane on a California freeway during rush hour ? DEATH WISH ?

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If only Americans utilized a passing lane for passing...

On another note, I would not hesitate to take my bike on a freeway in LA. I have lightened the preloaded for a smooth ride and can cruise at 70mph. Doesn't leave much top end though. When traffic becomes congested the slicing and dicing begins.

On the 15 back to Las Vegas, my bike did fine on everything except going up the large hills. It got down to 50mph at times and I hung in the semi/slow lane.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:10 AM   #20
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What makes motorcycles extremely expensive to commute on, compared to scooters?



Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
A lot of the fatigue you experienced is due to the difference in unsprung weight between a motorcycle and a scooter. The bigger displacement, the more unsprung weight, so displacement isn't always the answer. The scooters that have the engine mounted to the frame solve this problem, and are a lot more comfortable on the interstate. Motorcycles are great as far as time saved because you can lane split, etc, but they are extremely expensive to commute on, compared to scooters.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterpartsco View Post
Motorcycles are great as far as time saved because you can lane split, etc, but they are extremely expensive to commute on, compared to scooters.
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What makes motorcycles extremely expensive to commute on, compared to scooters?
This really depends on the motorcycle / scooter. For example, my KLR650 is less expensive to operate than my Aprilia 250. The Aprilia gets better MPG, 75 vs 50-55, but I spend far less on tires on the KLR. Compare my KLR to a big Maxi scooter and the KLR will come out ahead easily.

A big part of the cost of any scooter or motorcycle is maintenance. If you do your own maintenance is saves a bundle. For example. I change my own tires on my dual sport bikes, but not street bikes/scooters with tubeless tires. I adjust my own valves but not sure I would want to tackle some of the more complex bikes out there. And what about valve adjustment intervals? Typically they are longer on motorcycles.

Of course, if you're commuting on a GSXR 1000 or just about any other large motorcycle, then the most scooters will be cheaper.

It would be interesting to compare a V Strom 650 to a Burgman 650. I'd expect the V Strom to be cheaper to operate.

However, I don't ride purely based on what is the cheapest. I ride because it's fun. Saving money is important to me, but not the most important thing.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:30 PM   #22
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A new Kymco GTi300 and a Honda CB500F cost about the same. The Honda will have better power, better acceleration, and better maneuverability in traffic. It also likely has a higher top speed. The Kymco (or any similar scooter) would be far more comfortable for me, because of the "sitting in a chair" riding position, rather than the lean forward, feet behind you position of the Honda. It also has the advantage of a step through design, and no shifting. The Honda will likely require less maintenance, because it does not have a CVT. Both will work fine for commuting, depending on the rider. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Out of those two, I would take the Kymco. BUT, replace the Honda with a midsize cruiser, which still has the "sitting in a chair" riding position, and things change. I have ridden cruisers with a "sitting in a chair" riding position hundreds of thousands of miles at freeway speeds with no problems. For some reason due to their design, smaller scooters tend to be less stable at high speeds than motorcycles with the same riding position. I have yet to figure out why.

"However, I don't ride purely based on what is the cheapest. I ride because it's fun. Saving money is important to me, but not the most important thing" I have to TOTALLY agree with this. In today's world, most people NEED to save money. But I ride ONLY for fun, and I would not do it if it were not fun. A car has it all over a bike in a 100 different ways as far as convenience and practicality go, and you can get cars that get 40 mpg. They are just not "fun". I rarely commute on a bike. Riding is almost 100% recreation for me.

JerryH screwed with this post 01-03-2014 at 12:37 PM
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:52 PM   #23
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A new Kymco GTi300 and a Honda CB500F cost about the same. The Honda will have better power, better acceleration, and better maneuverability in traffic. It also likely has a higher top speed. The Kymco (or any similar scooter) would be far more comfortable for me, because of the "sitting in a chair" riding position, rather than the lean forward, feet behind you position of the Honda. It also has the advantage of a step through design, and no shifting. The Honda will likely require less maintenance, because it does not have a CVT. Both will work fine for commuting, depending on the rider. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Out of those two, I would take the Kymco. BUT, replace the Honda with a midsize cruiser, which still has the "sitting in a chair" riding position, and things change. I have ridden cruisers with a "sitting in a chair" riding position hundreds of thousands of miles at freeway speeds with no problems. For some reason due to their design, smaller scooters tend to be less stable at high speeds than motorcycles with the same riding position. I have yet to figure out why.

"However, I don't ride purely based on what is the cheapest. I ride because it's fun. Saving money is important to me, but not the most important thing" I have to TOTALLY agree with this. In today's world, most people NEED to save money. But I ride ONLY for fun, and I would not do it if it were not fun. A car has it all over a bike in a 100 different ways as far as convenience and practicality go, and you can get cars that get 40 mpg. They are just not "fun". I rarely commute on a bike. Riding is almost 100% recreation for me.
Smaller scooters have smaller wheels, shorter wheelbase and less stiff frames. Naturally they tend to be less stable. However, I have not found this to be a problem. My Super 8 and Sport city are both perfectly stable at top speed. I once rented a Riva 125 in Hawaii. It was smaller and lighter than my Super 8 and had tiny 10" wheels. It was still perfectly stable at an indicated 65MPH.

As for the Sitting in a chair riding position. I find that to be hard on my back. For me motorcycles, except cruisers, tend to have a better riding position. But then, everyone is built different and prefers different riding positions.

Scooters do tend to have much better seats than motorcycles and are more practical for commuting around town. I do commute on my scooters but wouldn't do it if it weren't fun.

Like you said, everything has it's advantages and disadvantages. There is no perfect bike.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:48 PM   #24
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For me riding over 50mph for any length of time without a windshield is just not going to happen. I rode a GTS 18 miles on I-25 without a windshield and felt like I'd been through the ringer. I've ridden both our Sports City 250 and Vespa GTS 250 for hundreds of miles on the freeway at 70+mph and up to the low 80s - by GPS, 92-25 on the speedo with the Puig windshield on the SC and summer windshield on the GTS. While the Sports City with its bigger wheels feels more stable than the GTS I don't find myself particularly fatigued riding either one at those speeds for as long as it takes to run through a tank of gas.


FWIW, I find the seating position on the traditional style scoots like the BV, Vespa, Scarabeo, Sports City far more comfortable than the Burgman. I couldn't wait to trade our Burgman 400 in for a BV 500. While the Burgman is pretty good for freeway riding it is a pig in the city in my opinion. I know many folks who lover their Burgies but they aren't for me neither is a cruiser, dual sport or sports motorcycle. I occasionally think about getting a standard motorcycle but that's as far as it goes. The BMW c600 sport I'll admit is interesting but I'll wait until they are readily available on the used market before considering one.

I've ridden our BV and Scarabeo 500s cruising 85-90 (gps) comfortable in Nevada, Montana and other long tours of 3,370 - 4,400 miles without issue and in comfort. The only issue I've experienced with those speeds for extended periods it my gas mileage sucked dropping down to 58-62 mph.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:54 PM   #25
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I finally gave up on windshields on motorcycles, The severe buffeting they caused was much more uncomfortable than no windshield at all. That is at high speeds. However I do have a windshield on my Zuma 125. I gained about 5 mph with it, though comfortwise I can't tell a difference. It would likely cause a problem for me at higher speeds than the Zuma will go.
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:32 PM   #26
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Sometimes I wonder if I have some sort of anatomical issue. I can't tolerate any kind of seat but a straight flat one where I can sit leaning somewhat forward with my arms out in front. I need to be able to move forward and back now and then. Do riders generally find stepped seats comfortable? Are they just for very short trips? The seats they put on scooters and most motorcycles are all wrong for me. http://www.flickr.com/photos/29821169@N06/11784705554/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/29821169@N06/11784486795/
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:47 PM   #27
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Sometimes I wonder if I have some sort of anatomical issue. I can't tolerate any kind of seat but a straight flat one where I can sit leaning somewhat forward with my arms out in front. I need to be able to move forward and back now and then. Do riders generally find stepped seats comfortable? Are they just for very short trips? The seats they put on scooters and most motorcycles are all wrong for me. http://www.flickr.com/photos/29821169@N06/11784705554/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/29821169@N06/11784486795/
It's not just you. Many people complain about stepped seats. I think that stepped seats exist for two reasons. First, it allows the riders portion to be lower. Second, it's a styling thing. Styling sells bikes. People generally don't figure out a seat is uncomfortable until after they bought it and put some miles on it.

OK, maybe there's a third reason. On some seats, the step provides some back support.

Personally I think scooter seats tend to be better than motorcycle seats but in any case, there's a good reason there are so many aftermarket seat companies out there.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:04 PM   #28
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It's not just you. Many people complain about stepped seats. I think that stepped seats exist for two reasons. First, it allows the riders portion to be lower. Second, it's a styling thing. Styling sells bikes. People generally don't figure out a seat is uncomfortable until after they bought it and put some miles on it.

OK, maybe there's a third reason. On some seats, the step provides some back support.

Personally I think scooter seats tend to be better than motorcycle seats but in any case, there's a good reason there are so many aftermarket seat companies out there.
A friend of mine found a good deal on a 4 cyl Kawasaki, and wasted no time altering the stepped seat and the pull back handlebars to make a standard motorcycle out of it.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...11881360_n.jpg He changed the bars a week later.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:27 PM   #29
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JerryH said: "I finally gave up on windshields on motorcycles, The severe buffeting they caused was much more uncomfortable than no windshield at all."

There's a lot of truth in that statement. For me, however, the option is not to ride without a windshield...I get too beat up and fatigue much more quickly fighting the wind. The answer is to find a windshield which works.

The stock windshield which was on the SWing and the windshield on the VStar were both horrible for buffeting...to the point that I was seeing double at speeds over 65. Answer?

Givi AirFlow for the SWing:


VStar before:


VStar after:


The Givi AirFlow completely eliminated buffeting on the SWing. The new wind deflector on the VStar is an MRA Xcreen...it also has completely eliminated buffeting, but does not provide as much wind protection as the old police-style screen...also not really very pretty, but I'd rather be able to ride without buffeting...

The point is that there are solutions to buffeting, but for me, riding without a windshield takes the enjoyment out of the ride, particularly when the matter can be resolved fairly easily...
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Old 01-06-2014, 04:28 AM   #30
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My preference is no windshield up to about 45 mph and a good fairing above that. The old Windjammer fairings work great and they're cheap but too big for a 250 motorcycle and they won't mount on a scooter.
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