ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-24-2013, 05:50 AM   #1
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
Evolution or Revolution?

I have been working on my old 1984 Elite 125, the precursor of the modern scooter. The question occurred to me when I watched the Elite 110 commercials, what changes have been made since 1984? Seems like not much except styling. The 1984 styling lasted about 2 years!
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 06:32 AM   #2
Bronco638
Nobody Home
 
Bronco638's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Itasca, IL
Oddometer: 3,406
Abs?
__________________
There are some simple thruths......and dogs know what they are - Joseph Duemer

Andy holds the lead. And he will, all the way to the Highway. Today is his day.
Bronco638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 07:09 AM   #3
Dabears
Studly Adventurer
 
Dabears's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta Burbs
Oddometer: 976
Fuel injection? Front Disk Brake? Styling seems to be pretty similar to the Piaggio Fly 3v. Wonder how they compare price & performance wise.

I'm sure dealer support would be better (at least from a quantity of dealer perspective)....
__________________
Dabears

2006 R1200GS
1980 Vespa P200E
Dabears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 07:27 AM   #4
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabears View Post
Fuel injection? Front Disk Brake? Styling seems to be pretty similar to the Piaggio Fly 3v. Wonder how they compare price & performance wise.

I'm sure dealer support would be better (at least from a quantity of dealer perspective)....

http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Pic...ochure1984.jpg
This is the 1984
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 08:08 AM   #5
ohiotj
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Oddometer: 33
Geometry. Newer scoots tend to have a longer wheelbase, and other changes that make them more stable at speed. Not all of them, mind you, but a significant amount of them. My 85 Elite 250 was a little scary at 55 MPH, even if it had plenty of power to get there.
ohiotj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 09:55 AM   #6
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiotj View Post
Geometry. Newer scoots tend to have a longer wheelbase, and other changes that make them more stable at speed. Not all of them, mind you, but a significant amount of them. My 85 Elite 250 was a little scary at 55 MPH, even if it had plenty of power to get there.
A longer wheelbase is a good idea. The main complaints I have with my Elite is the stepped seat, and the twitchiness caused by a short wheelbase. When the rear wheel loses traction on a turn it moves quickly.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 01:58 PM   #7
DaBinChe
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mtns.
Oddometer: 713
better suspension, and geometry, more efficient (motor, use of space, etc)
DaBinChe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 05:31 AM   #8
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
In 1984 I was having a tough time resuscitating my Heinkel scooter. Parts were available for the first time in 10 years. I was struggling with a scooter that needed work done that I had never done before. Impatient for a scooter, I responded to the ads for the new Japanese scooters by going to the local Yamaha dealer to buy the Riva 180. The dealer couldn't get it to start, and one of the mechanics let slip he had gotten the brand new scoot over 70 mph. I thought that was misuse of newmerchandise. Recently I have found that starting problems plagued the Riva 180 for years! So I went to the Honda dealer and test rode the Elite 125. I saw the new scooters as the future of motorcycling- the V belt transmission, the integrated design, interchangeable wheels, and in the Honda's case, the liquid cooled engine. I bought the Honda, and my wife and I rode two up all summer, putting 7000 miles on that scooter pretty quickly. Maybe 2 summers. In the meantime I got the Heinkel running properly, and gave the Honda to my wife. I have enjoyed watching the Honda CH125 become the template for the scooters of the past 28 years.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 09:23 AM   #9
brianwheelies
Iron toocus
 
brianwheelies's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Oddometer: 2,709
Scooters are such a simple design and at an economic price point that limits much that can be changed.

The only revolution would be the maxi class of bikes, IMO.
brianwheelies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 10:57 AM   #10
RedArrow
If only the moon
 
RedArrow's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Oddometer: 1,080
Love your 84 Elite, scootrboi. Stablemate to my Aero, so I may be a bit prejudiced. I think whatever technical enhancements may have been made since then, style-wise, it's mostly been downhill.

But in the name of "progress," there's always Yamaha's scooter airbag:

http://thekneeslider.com/yamaha-scooter-airbag/

Reminds me of the old phrase, Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

Agree with other posters as far as twitchiness-at-speed goes with these short-wheelbase scoots. But the old Helix was like a sofa, and I mean not pointed the way you'd want a sofa to point going down the highway at 60.
__________________
1984 Honda Aero NH125 Scooter
1983 Honda CT110
RedArrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 01:33 PM   #11
conchscooter
Beastly Adventurer
 
conchscooter's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Florida Keys
Oddometer: 1,697
The limitations of modern scooters seem to be dictated by sales which means that because they are sold solely as urban commuters they are limited in style. The big ones are being offered as automatic motorcycles with weather protection so that limits them.
It might be fun to see an off road scooter or a street racer but it doesn't seem likely.
They are just engines with belts with bodywork. It's a pity.
__________________
http://www.keywestdiary.us

IBA#39,523
conchscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 05:43 PM   #12
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedArrow View Post
Love your 84 Elite, scootrboi. Stablemate to my Aero, so I may be a bit prejudiced. I think whatever technical enhancements may have been made since then, style-wise, it's mostly been downhill.

But in the name of "progress," there's always Yamaha's scooter airbag:

http://thekneeslider.com/yamaha-scooter-airbag/

Reminds me of the old phrase, Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

Agree with other posters as far as twitchiness-at-speed goes with these short-wheelbase scoots. But the old Helix was like a sofa, and I mean not pointed the way you'd want a sofa to point going down the highway at 60.
I just mentioned my desire to fix up this scooter, on another forum. A member responded with a link to a NOS muffler for my Elite, at far less money than I have ever seen for that part. The rest of what I need should be easy to get: probably should replace the drive belt, and repair the airbox. I am thinking of making a new seat, a flat one like on my Heinkel. I do fiberglass castings, and plan to cast a seat pan.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2013, 11:22 PM   #13
John Bentall
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: London UK
Oddometer: 210
I would say that there have been 2 revolutionary scooter designs since your 1984 Elite.

The first had a brief life, was rather too heavy, too expensive to manufacture and purchase. It is now a sought-after "cult" machine in its homeland and elsewhere. In certain European countries it was regarded as so "safe" that it could be ridden without an otherwise-mandatory helmet.

The second is making its appearance now and will surely be with us for some time to come.

What am I referring to....?



1) BMW C1
2) Electric PTW's.

Can anyone else think of more revolutionary rather than evolutionary designs?

John Bentall screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 11:44 PM
John Bentall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #14
scootrboi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
scootrboi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Vermont
Oddometer: 1,183
I just removed the cover from my CH 125 to inspect the belt. It looked very good, but the shop manual directed me to measure the width. According to my vernier calipers, the drive belt is 16mm wide. Less than 17.2mm is too narrow to leave on the scooter. While I am in there I will probably see how the weights look, and relubricate them at least. 12,000 miles. It will probably run better. Didn't seem that it was quite up to its old self, and I will adjust the valves too.
__________________
42 years on a Heinkel Tourist
scootrboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 04:13 PM   #15
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,336
There would seem to be very little to change about a scooter while still keeping it a scooter. Every scooter I have owned has functioned just fine. There is one change I would like to see that I would call revolutionary. In the beginning, most scooters had manual transmissions. Now they have CVT transmissions. I think the next step should be a true automatic transmission, like the DCT, which would eliminate the belt, rollers, and other wear parts, and hopefully provide a wider gear range. While some of the large displacement scooter/motorcycle hybrids already have something like this, I would like to see it on small displacement scooters. It would likely increase the cost to begin with, but in the long run, it should not be any more expensive. It would eliminate constant parts replacement, and should make for a much longer lasting scooter in general.
__________________
2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014