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Old 08-25-2012, 11:55 AM   #331
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Wonder how that ban is working out for them http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...7#.UDkeiKM8XSg
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:59 AM   #332
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...As far as LA being a footnote in 10 years...

mmmmmmmmm......no. That is silly...
That's true. I still remember Ben Johnson.
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:44 PM   #333
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That's true. I still remember Ben Johnson.

Who did he ride for?
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:01 PM   #334
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Who did he ride for?


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Old 08-25-2012, 08:48 PM   #335
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Lance has always been a cheat and we all knew it. Beating a field of cheaters 7 times and claiming to be clean. Laughable. Cycling is the dirtiest sport along side the NFL and Major League baseball. He cheated and got caught, the French were right all along.
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:59 PM   #336
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Cycling is the most drug-ridden, corrupt sport there is. If Armstrong's not a doper, he's Superman.

I lost all respect for Armstrong and all belief in his innocence after the story of his interaction with Greg Lemond came out 5 years or so ago. In 2000, Lemond had criticized Armstrong's long association with Michele Ferrari, the Italian doctor since banned from cycling for blood doping, and expressed his view that Armstrong's 1999 comeback was tainted by doping.

Lemond's reputation in cycling is without parallel. He was the first American to win the Tour de France, was untouched by scandal and was a consistent and outspoken opponent of doping.

Armstrong could not let Lemond's criticisms stand. He publicly denied them - while behind the scenes, he threatened Lemond and tried to sabotage Lemond's licensing deal with Trek Cycles. Lemond was basically extorted by Armstrong into withdrawing his remarks and apologizing. Lemond later revealed the whole sordid story.

Armstrong is an amoral, ruthless manipulator of low character. His refusal to fight banishment from his sport after years of denials is a cynical strategic withdrawal. Armstrong finally had the opportunity to defeat his critics once and for all, based on evidence he could contest in a fair hearing - as he had always claimed he wanted to do. But he chose to walk away - because he would certainly have lost. Now his reputation rests on the weakest rationale, that he is a victim of a witchhunt. It won't wash.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:01 PM   #337
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There are ample cases of high profile athletes who have denied, denied, denied and proclaimed innocence only to be found out after the fact that in fact, they had used illegal methods or substances.
Often times, that comes from the BACK-TESTING of samples after the science determines ways to detect substances that were previously (unknown).

USADA statement:

"Witnesses also provided EVIDENCE that Lance Armstrong gave to them, encouraged them to use and administered doping products or methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from 1999 through 2005.

** Additionally, SCIENTIFIC DATA showed Mr. Armstrong's use of blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions during Mr. Armstrong's comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour de France."

In a June letter to Armstrong, a copy of which was obtained by CNN, the USADA said it collected blood samples from him in 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:21 AM   #338
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Actually, at the time of his wins, Lemond also had accusations fly in his direction. If anything doping was even more prevalent in his time. While I respect Lemond and his accomplishments, I don't put any more faith in his statements about the use or not, of PEDs than I do any other athlete accused or not.

The only difference between doping in cycling and any other sport is that in cycling the history is documented and in many other sports it isn't, for example, baseball where they just didn't bother to look for many, many years.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:31 AM   #339
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Well, then let's see the evidence. Let's see all that delicious capslocky scientific data. Let's see it in a fair, balanced courtroom arbitrated by a neutral third party who abides on a widely recognized set of rules.

Otherwise, haters gonna just keep on hatin'.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:42 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by BobbySands View Post
1. please read thread before commenting. Start with post #202 and pay particular attention to the last paragraph.
i'll help: http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=202

2. keep reading until you hit post
read the article or withhold any further comment http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=312

3. realise that I meant what I said in that post but you've missed the seminal parts I posted earlier.

4. apology accepted.
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Originally Posted by RTLover View Post
I've read them all.

My response to you was that you're blasting him because so-and-so racer did thus-and-so. What does that have to do with the charges of doping? 'Lance's only claim to fame is the Tour.' If this is material to the issue of his ALLEGED doping you're going to have to tell me why and how. For all your narrative, there is still no unequivocal proof. Look for an apology elsewhere. I stand by my comments and my position that guilt doesn't flow naturally from refusing to respond. It's up to a trier of the fact to find objective evidence, with or without the person charged.

I'll have to copy and paste from my original post just to prove to you that you're treading around the tree over and over again for no reason:

"But I will say this. There must be samples frozen and they must be available somewhere. With more sophisticated techniques they should be able to come up with something concrete-- and I'm speaking about chemistry here, not testimony. Without that, I think this is a witch hunt and we should probably leave Lance's legacy, such that it is, for the fans to decide. I'd bet the house I'm sitting in that he doped. I also think every top contender during his era doped. I think doping nearly ruined the sport of cycling and I think it must be stopped. When doping controls really became tight (after Lance won 6 titles) the racing became so much better. Speeds dropped, the ability cyclists to perform superhumanly for 3 days in a row stopped, and the races became a lot more exciting. You lot that want doping allowed can have that in track and field or some other sport. Leave my sport alone."


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apology still accepted
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:51 AM   #341
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Doping's certainly been around a lot longer than LA. Anyone remember Tom Simpson?

How bout Merckx?

PEDs certainly progressed rapidly beyond Amphetamines to blood trasfusions to EPO to ?? There were lots of tales about amphetamine use thru GL's time. IIRC the stories of EPO in the peloton started around 99. Part of what GL was so pissed at is there were all of a sudden domestiques outriding their stars 'cause they were on EPO.

AFA GL's dealings with Trek: if he'da kept his yap shut, or at least wasn't quite as public... I talked to a buddy that works inside Trek and the dealers were saying that they couldn't move LeMonds any more. No one seemed to want em. End of relationship.

Bruyneel and whathisname are still fighting, so we may hear/see something yet.

Oh, and if we're banning based on testimony what's the point of having blood/urine tests?

M
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:46 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Rollin View Post
You expose a pretty deep bias there sport.

I wasn't implying that it is important to anyone else that cycling in America isn't obscure- I was saying that the guy opened your sport to a much larger audience. Much larger audiences generally help sports move along, no?

As far as LA being a footnote in 10 years...

mmmmmmmmm......no. That is silly.

For some reason there is little worse than a cycle snob......
well, I think you bring up a good point and I'll attempt an equally measured, carefully thought out response:

I'm not AT ALL convinced that Lance Armstrong has 'helped' my sport in anyway. He certainly hasn't had the impact that Lemond had, to be sure.

For instance, we already had television coverage of the Tour before Lance rode it. Sure, it was enhanced during Lance's career but I had to pay 30 USD a month to get the VS. or whatever the hell it's called now just to see it. But it's the modern era and anyone who knows much about proxy servers can watch much of the Tour from their home computer. Certainly it's easier now but only a bit. In 1991 I had a customer of the frame builder for whom I worked bring us copies of La Gezzetta Dello Sport from NYC and the old Guidos from the neighbourhood would read the coverage to us. I pay for a web service that would broadcast, live or cached, every single pro race.

Has he helped the amateur racing in the USA? I suppose so, I don't think it could be argued otherwise. There was a flood of new customers after Lemond won the Tour, and with Lance's partnership with Trek I bet it would have to be the same. I have no hard numbers regarding the USCF roster for cat 4 or junior racers. But I have to say I'm terribly concerned about US bicycle racing or racers, for that matter. I'm more interested in when another Frenchman will win the Tour, or when another Italian will win the World Championships. Or how Axel Merckx did this year.

I haven't raced a USCF race in 15 years and heavens knows if I ever will again. I loved cycling since I was a wee child and I always will.

Here's one thing Lance did for the US regarding cycling:
He became yet another example of loud, obnoxious, arrogant American hubris. It was easy to find people who despised him, partly for winning and partly because of his personality. Probably it was also this personality which allowed him the mental strength to win as he did, but he was often difficult to like.

Worse yet, and I this is my major charge: He turned this country and a small portion of the world into a bunch of Tour watchers. And while I watch Tour coverage every single day and agree rightfully that it is the pinnacle of the sport, most Americans have never heard of La Fleche Wallone or Milan-San Remo or the Tour of Flanders. And that pisses me off. And Lance didn't ride many classics because he was training for the Tour (or dodging the more stringent racing dope control, depending on how much you dislike him) and they never were covered and now few people in America care for cycling except for 25 days in July. And for that I truly dislike Lance's legacy.

How much better could it have been for cycling fans if Lance was winning Fall Classic after Fall Classic and was covered on TV every time he put on his Motorola kit. THAT would have helped to change my opinion.
Let's put it this way, even if doping were a non-issue in the sport, I would rather have dinner with about 30 different cyclist before Lance. Phil Anderson, Fignon, De Vlaeminck, Merckx, Moser, Kelly, Marc Madiot, Joop Zoetemelk, the list goes on.

And more to my point (and I know I'm prattling on here) if we take away Lance's Tour de France wins (I know I'm asking a lot for you to suspend those results but indulge me for a second) what have you got left for victories:

1.Criterium du Dauphine
2.Tour du Suisse
3.Tour de Luxembourg
4. World Championships
5. Classic San Sebastian
6. Fleche Wallone.

That's it.

Because Lance concentrated on the Tour only. And that was horrible for the sport. You realise there are 3 grand tours, the Tour de France chief among them, then the Tour of Italy (the Giro) and the Tour of Spain (the Vuelta). Lance never concerned himself with those. Why not?

Let's look at Eddy Merckx' victories:

1. 5 Tours, several in which he not only won the overall, like Lance, but also won the points, mountain, combined, and most agressive jerseys. He has won 34 single stage wins.
2. 5 Tours of Italy with 24 stage wins.
3. Paris-Nice 3 wins
4. Tour de Suisse
5. World Championships 3 times
6. Milan-San Remo 7 times winner
7. Paris-Roubaix 3 wins
8. Liege-Bastogn-Liege 5 times winner
9. Tour of Lombady 2 wins

and I give up. He won every single major race during his career, many more than once.

Think about Laurent Fignon. He won his first Tour de France at the age of 22, the year that Greg Lemond won his World Championship. (1983/4 was a big year for a young Bobby Sands). He passed at the age of 50 (RIP, Larry) but he raced hard and won loads of one days and minor tours, and he has two Tour de France wins, one Tour of Italy, and many other victories. Not to mention the loss to Greg Lemond in the final time trial of the Tour.

If you've never seen the pros hammer up the short, incredibly steep cobbled climbs of the Het Volk (I'll call it by it's own name)-- and I'm guessing you haven't-- you owe it to yourself. Sometimes spitting snow, oftentimes raining, the grimace and suffering is monumental and the short final climb is a perfect launcher for a victory if one can get his body to ignore the blinding pain and accelerate.

Of course, Lance was usually in the south of Italy prepping for the Tour...
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:01 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Doping's certainly been around a lot longer than LA. Anyone remember Tom Simpson?

How bout Merckx?

PEDs certainly progressed rapidly beyond Amphetamines to blood trasfusions to EPO to ?? There were lots of tales about amphetamine use thru GL's time. IIRC the stories of EPO in the peloton started around 99. Part of what GL was so pissed at is there were all of a sudden domestiques outriding their stars 'cause they were on EPO.

AFA GL's dealings with Trek: if he'da kept his yap shut, or at least wasn't quite as public... I talked to a buddy that works inside Trek and the dealers were saying that they couldn't move LeMonds any more. No one seemed to want em. End of relationship.

Bruyneel and whathisname are still fighting, so we may hear/see something yet.

Oh, and if we're banning based on testimony what's the point of having blood/urine tests?

M
I have laid my hands on the monument to Tommy Simpson. I don't know any 'vintage' cyclist who denies, either directly or indirectly, they were doped. Before he passed Fignon admitted that he doped during his time. With what? EPO and a list of 10,000 designer drugs to mask it? No. with speed and steroids and nearly as often as you make it out to be.

Meanwhile, riders of this era have physicians stepping up and down a system of EPO and other drugs over the course of an entire season, carefully monitored, so that the rider benefits most with as little risk as possible.

Look at Lance Armstrong's reviewed samples from Australia. At the start of the prologue 100% of the EPO found was synthetic. It stepped down from there, strategically. One the day of the Sestrierre, it's 96%.

I know that you're not trying to draw a corollary bewteen doping in 1967 and Lance's regimen of 2005?

P.S.
Tommy Simpson had more one day classic wins than Lance Armstrong does.
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--May well come to that.
"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:34 AM   #344
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Link Thank doG there are people out there that can string together ideas better than I can.

Q: what did Indurain win?

I watched those races. All LA did was take a winning formula: beat em in the TT and limit losses in the mtns to a newer era. Well, sorta. He could climb too.

IDK if he was doing anything in the Tour du Pont when he blasted up climbs I crawled up outside Blacksburg, or blasted up Beech Mtn in NC (watched that too!) but the man could ride. (as a note: damn you Alvaro Meija! (sp?) I wanted a PAIR of Motorola bottles! He made me give the second one away. ) Link to youtube vid from '95

So... if they're stripping titles, are they going to go all the way back to where LA was on the US Natl team? Why not?!

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Old 08-26-2012, 09:49 AM   #345
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I swear... I thought it was just powered sugar i was putting on my Wheaties
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