Lance Armstrong

[Bastard]

I swear... I thought it was just powered sugar i was putting on my Wheaties

[cogitate]

Originally Posted by filmfan

Actually, at the time of his wins, Lemond also had accusations fly in his direction. If anything doping was even more prevalent in his time. While I respect Lemond and his accomplishments, I don't put any more faith in his statements about the use or not, of PEDs than I do any other athlete accused or not.

The only difference between doping in cycling and any other sport is that in cycling the history is documented and in many other sports it isn't, for example, baseball where they just didn't bother to look for many, many years.

Yeah, Greg was sucking big time on his ADR team in 1989. His soignoir, Otto Jacome, found that Greg was low in iron the day before the big time trial in the Tour of Italy, in which Greg was royally sucking. Did Otto do a blood test? Is he a doctor? No, a soignoir, massage therapist, confidant, ummmmmm.

On the last time trial, Lemond got IIRC, 2nd or 4th. Hmmmm. He felt great!!! He was low on iron, that was it !!!!!

He went on to win the Tour De France with out a TEAM to help him. But he had Otto's iron supplements.


Blech. Almost as bad as Contador's beef ingestion. PS< i was a mega Greg fan, rode his frame sets, blah blah blah.


He should have kept his mouth shut

[cogitate]

I need some of that. Gotta source?

Originally Posted by Bastard

I swear... I thought it was just powered sugar i was putting on my Wheaties

[PoundSand]

Originally Posted by Gummee!

IIRC the stories of EPO in the peloton started around 99.

A lot earlier than that.

[BobbySands]

Originally Posted by PoundSand

A lot earlier than that.

That is correct. Between 1987 and 1990 a spate of Belgian and Dutch cyclists died from heart attacks and all of them at night. The normally super low resting heart beat of a top level cyclist mated with abnormally viscous blood and lack of proper hydration saw young men dying in their sleep. The number was at least 20 with more suspected.

[Steve in ATL]

Originally Posted by BobbySands

I'm not AT ALL convinced that Lance Armstrong has 'helped' my sport in anyway. He certainly hasn't had the impact that Lemond had, to be sure.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/2107.html

The growth in membership continues a six-year trend which has seen the number of licensed racers in America increase by 48 percent since 2002. Over that same period of time, the number of events sanctioned by USA Cycling has risen by 50 percent, while affiliated clubs have grown by 30 percent.

Many of the sport's insiders point to the success and popularity of American athletes in cycling's most notable events, such as the Tour de France and the Olympic Games, as a primary factor in the sport's recent boom.

The most significant growth occurred throughout Lance Armstrong's dominant seven-year winning streak at the Tour de France between 1999 and 2005, while success by several other Americans on the sport's biggest stage since then has encouraged continued interest.

[Steve in ATL]

Originally Posted by BobbySands

I haven't raced a USCF race in 15 years and heavens knows if I ever will again. I loved cycling since I was a wee child and I always will.

I can guarantee that you never will again.

Not from any sinister means or wishes, mind you, but because it is no longer the USCF. It is now USACycling.

[Steve in ATL]

Originally Posted by BobbySands

And more to my point (and I know I'm prattling on here) if we take away Lance's Tour de France wins (I know I'm asking a lot for you to suspend those results but indulge me for a second) what have you got left for victories:

1.Criterium du Dauphine
2.Tour du Suisse
3.Tour de Luxembourg
4. World Championships
5. Classic San Sebastian
6. Fleche Wallone.

That's it.

Because Lance concentrated on the Tour only. And that was horrible for the sport. You realise there are 3 grand tours, the Tour de France chief among them, then the Tour of Italy (the Giro) and the Tour of Spain (the Vuelta). Lance never concerned himself with those. Why not?

Not to be snide or anything, but you do realize that the L-Factor has raced both the Giro and the Vuelta, right?

Originally Posted by BobbySands

Let's look at Eddy Merckx' victories:

1. 5 Tours, several in which he not only won the overall, like Lance, but also won the points, mountain, combined, and most agressive jerseys. He has won 34 single stage wins.
2. 5 Tours of Italy with 24 stage wins.
3. Paris-Nice 3 wins
4. Tour de Suisse
5. World Championships 3 times
6. Milan-San Remo 7 times winner
7. Paris-Roubaix 3 wins
8. Liege-Bastogn-Liege 5 times winner
9. Tour of Lombady 2 wins

and I give up. He won every single major race during his career, many more than once.

Think about Laurent Fignon. He won his first Tour de France at the age of 22, the year that Greg Lemond won his World Championship. (1983/4 was a big year for a young Bobby Sands). He passed at the age of 50 (RIP, Larry) but he raced hard and won loads of one days and minor tours, and he has two Tour de France wins, one Tour of Italy, and many other victories. Not to mention the loss to Greg Lemond in the final time trial of the Tour.

If you've never seen the pros hammer up the short, incredibly steep cobbled climbs of the Het Volk (I'll call it by it's own name)-- and I'm guessing you haven't-- you owe it to yourself. Sometimes spitting snow, oftentimes raining, the grimace and suffering is monumental and the short final climb is a perfect launcher for a victory if one can get his body to ignore the blinding pain and accelerate.

Of course, Lance was usually in the south of Italy prepping for the Tour...

I'm not sure what you're lamenting here: that it isn't like the old days, or that it can't be, and never will be again.

The fact of the matter is that ALL of the races you mentioned above are no longer raced the same as they once were. And they can no longer be raced at a high level by everyone involved any longer, primarily for that reason. The Giro used to be "raced" at a slow tempo for the first third to two-thirds of each stage (and breakaway attempts were usually met with cries of Piano! Piano! from the riders, and a stern lecture from the patron not to engage in such silliness on a fine spring day. MSR used to be a (slow!) training ride for the first 100k (or longer). Paris-Roubaix was the same, until the first stretch of cobbles was reached. Strong teams used to entirely control the classics - I remember a cover of Winning showing the entire Panasonic team riding (light tempo, on the hoods) next to each other on the front, from gutter to gutter - no one could pass! Do you not recall Musseuw riding into the Roubaix velodrome with two teammates, having ridden everyone off? There's too much talent spread over too many teams for that now!

With all the races being ridden so hard from the gun now, it's impossible to compare eras. It's a different kind of cycling than the 70's. Or the 80's, and even some of the 90's. You can't show up at the spring classics slightly out of shape and ride your way into fitness anymore, and that means that cycling is now a year-round sport, and that takes a toll. There's only so much the human body can do.

[Steve in ATL]

Originally Posted by Gummee!

IDK if he was doing anything in the Tour du Pont when he blasted up climbs I crawled up outside Blacksburg, or blasted up Beech Mtn in NC (watched that too!) but the man could ride. (as a note: damn you Alvaro Meija! (sp?) I wanted a PAIR of Motorola bottles! He made me give the second one away. ) Link to youtube vid from '95

Interesting to see early L-Factor and how large his upper body still was pre-cancer.

[kobudo28]

The news reported this AM that donations to the Armstrong Foundation are up.

[shrineclown]

Originally Posted by kobudo28

The news reported this AM that donations to the Armstrong Foundation are up.

Twenty times the normal rate. He finished second in an MTB race in CO yesterday too. To an adoring fan base by all accounts. Czar who?

[kobudo28]

Originally Posted by shrineclown

Twenty times the normal rate. He finished second in an MTB race in CO yesterday too. To an adoring fan base by all accounts. Czar who?

Sounds a bit like his fans are giving the USADA the ADV salute. Works for me.

[Kamala]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...2080853.column

An interesting read!

[fz6kd7]

Originally Posted by Kamala

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...2080853.column

An interesting read!

Power corupts
Absolute power corupts absolutly

[BobbySands]

Originally Posted by Steve in ATL

1. Not to be snide or anything, but you do realize that the L-Factor has raced both the Giro and the Vuelta, right?

2. The fact of the matter is that ALL of the races you mentioned above are no longer raced the same as they once were. And they can no longer be raced at a high level by everyone involved any longer, primarily for that reason.

3. The Giro used to be "raced" at a slow tempo for the first third to two-thirds of each stage (and breakaway attempts were usually met with cries of Piano! Piano! from the riders, and a stern lecture from the patron not to engage in such silliness on a fine spring day. MSR used to be a (slow!) training ride for the first 100k (or longer)

4. Paris-Roubaix was the same, until the first stretch of cobbles was reached.

I do think you are being snide. I said "Lance never concerned himself with," either the Vuelta or the Giro.
You realise he raced the Giro one time and one time only in 2009 and did poorly. He finished 12th and refused to take any chances on the final time trial, finishing 53rd. And that Giro was widely regarded as having a more difficult course than the Tour de France. And are you going to tell me that his legacy wouldn't have been improved if they would say, 6 time Tour de France winner, with a Giro and a Vuelta win as well?

Perhaps your perception is that twisted or perhaps you just like the Tour that much.

Now you do your part to prove your worthiness in this conversation: How many times has Lance ridden the Vuelta?

As for strong teams controlling the classics I think you have it wrong. Surely there was a nice photo of the Panasonic team riding an early classic. I would find it unusual to have a Dutch team not taking a photo op in a fall classic.

But your answer is, quite simply, a load of hog anus. There have been so many long break-aways in the Paris-Roubaix (how in the world can any team control that race with the havoc wreaked by the pave?) and you can't tell us any differently. I watch Marc Madiot get out and stay out for ever in 1985. What a race. And again in 1991. And 2003 winner Peter Van Petegem won with that astoundingly strong Lotto team behind him and 2004 Magnus Backstedt won with the perrenial powerhouse Alessio-Bianchi. Seriously? Cancellara put it on the line in 2006 and won.

I think your argument is bunk. And as Lance's career as a grand tour winner began to fade, he never considered trying to own a few of these Monuments? Guess he didn't have the jam. Or perhaps he wasn't interested in the more stringent dope control. Or maybe those races just weren't 'rockstar' enough for him. (or you, for that matter)

I'll address your post point by point.

1. I already went through that. I ask you for an apology on this matter. Snide, indeed.
2. You forgot to mention what reason is 'that reason' What is the reason the races cannot be raced 'like that'
3. This is the fallacy of irrelevance, Sir. It doesn't matter how the race is raced if you never enter it.
4. More homework for you: Find a map of the 2011 Paris-Roubaix and tell us all how far into the race the first section of cobbles is met. We'd be interested in knowing exactly how long the strong teams had a 'stranglehold' on the race.